by Marvin Shilmer 305 Replies latest social current
But obnoxiously failing to either disperse or sit down when requested to do so in this kind of circumstance is just plain stupid
Wow, how can "failing to sit down when requested" be obnoxious. I wouldn't sit on the ground either if I didn't want to. Once again, they are public servants, if a member of the public doesn't want to lie in the dirt I don't understand why their servant should be ordering them to do so, when they are not under detention or arrest, and appear to be committing no crime.
You say they are public right of way, Morpheus says they are private land - who is right!
I don't know in this instance if the sidewalks are on public right-of-way or not. I suspect they are a public right-of-way, but again could not say for sure. My question to you is: Why does it matter so much? Assuming police responded to a scene on public property with a large and unruly crowd with reported violence, what do you expect them to do when individuals in the crowd fail to follow simple instructions to restore order and keep everyone safe while the disorder is still going on and police still have no idea who in the crowd, if anyone, represents a threat to anyone's safety? These police were not called to the scene because they had done something. The police were called to the scene because supposedly multiple individuals in the crowd had done something violent that was threatening safety. Were their knives? The police had no idea? Were their guns? The police had no idea. Until order was restored the police were having to look in every direction and suspect multiple individuals around them attempting to figure out what was going on.
Why? Telling someone to sit on the ground is not a reasonable request, they are PUBLIC SERVANTS, they serve the public, they are not there to demand people sit on the ground while they power trip. Unless someone is under arrest or being detained then they have no obligation to obey the word of another human being, let alone one there to serve them.
So by your definition, criminals can just walk away and don't have to comply?
If someone has committed a crime or been a public nuisance then they should do as they are told. She ignored repeated requests to move away and ignored / defied them. What are the police to do next - just throw up their hands and say "oh well, we tried - sorry community, there's nothing else we can do"
Laughable.
It matters, because, if someone is just standing there on public land, committing no crime, then a police officer (or anyone else) has NO right to be demanding anything of them.
Quite why you think 14 year olds in bikinis are threats to safety, or had guns (down the bikini tops?) is beyond me. It was quite clear that the young girls the officer was handcuffing and wrestling to the ground were not "threatening safety" or an "unruly crowd".
Really, if you can't see this though, this is a pointless debate. Your language is so loaded I wonder if I watched the same video is you.
So by your definition, criminals can just walk away and don't have to comply?
Criminals, no, I have said repeatedly if someone is under arrest or being detained then they have to comply. If that person is not under arrest or being detained they are not a criminal. You are putting words in my mouth. What crime was a young girl in a bikini standing there committing? What makes her a criminal?
She ignored repeated requests to move away and ignored / defied them. What are the police to do next - just throw up their hands
Yup, move along, none of their business
what should the police do when people refuse to follow the law and resist the efforts of police to peacefully enforce the law? Should the police just give up and leave the scene? If people refuse to comply and follow verbal commands, should that end the continuum of enforcement? Bottom line, it never is as easy or simple as people not involved in any given situation think
Thanks for your perspective tenyearsafter - that reflects my opinion of these situations which is that most band incidents could easily be avoided by the people involved and the cops often give people plenty of opportunity but the people are often too dumb to back down and just want to push and push and push until they force a response.
Some people seem to be arguing for an end to policing - if the police are not allowed to act then that is effectively the result. Welcome to Baltimore - population: dead.
All this "sidewalk is public or private" is irrelevant. Getting to a public sidewalk isn't like getting across the border. If you've been trespassing and being a nuisance then it doesn't matter if you 'get to the public sidewalk'. You can be arrested in public areas whether you commit a crime there or have arrived there after committing a crime on someone else's property.
"Oh, if only the police would stop tackling criminals, the world would be a better place". Yeah, sound thinking right there.
Sigh.... No, not all sidewalks are "private property". Some, however, are community property. You arnt trespassing walking on them if you are memeber of the commuity or a guest of someone in the community.
Also, to correct my mistaken co-poster, im focusing on that particular point because its exactly how the community in question is set up. Its also a direct rebuttal to your claim that "no law was broken". Indeed they were broken. The police responded to the call as required. Had that disrespectful young lady walked away and addressed whatever wrong she felt had been done in the proper forum it would have been resolved without her being man handled.
to my co-poster( clearly you seem to think you speak for me) paul... You clearly know nothing about this forums politics. I am a peoples rights small government gun toting america first libertarian guy. Simon is a brittish big government anti gun liberal guy. The only two things we agree on are TTATT and this. Ive never meet simon and likely never will, given the geographic constraints. its his forum and i respect the rules as he sets them.... But his view, marvins view anybodys view means diddly to me.
Nice try setting up a strawman to discount the obviousness of the truth: they were breaking the law. They could have just walked away and laughed. They were stupid and paid a small price for a valuable lesson.
Wow, how can "failing to sit down when requested" be obnoxious.
When you're called to a scene of reported crowd violence and you're duty is to restore order to be able to ascertain who or what in that crowd represents a danger to safety and you issue instruction to either disperse of sit down, and an individual repeatedly responds by doing neither, and then when they do finally start complying by leaving the scene and THEN TURN AROUND and start walking right back to the scene, it is more than stupid, it is obnoxious.
I wouldn't sit on the ground either if I didn't want to.
A police officer who asks you to assume a sitting position for sake of your safety and his own is not making an unreasonable request in a circumstance like the McKinney pool party incident. If in that instance you refused such an order, in the USA you'll more than likely find yourself being handled to the ground, and if you resist in the slightest you'll probably find yourself cuffed until the officer can resolve whatever is going on to make sure safety is maintained for everyone, including you. If you don't like that you will have opportunity to tell it to a judge, and/or some other government official if you like.
Billyblobber, you write a great post, but there's an overlap here, we wouldn't get the same response to a video that showed a violent assault on a white girl.
These views lead to the creation of policies that hurt black people, which is the real problem of racism as you know.
I love how any posters who happen to agree on a particular subject are suddenly in collusion and part of a sinister plot to control everyone else.
I've never met Marvin or Morpheus and we disagree about some things and agree about others. It's part of having a discussion and sharing your viewpoint and hopefully we don't get too riled up in the process but even if we do it's not the end of the world - we're big boys, we can get over it. I'd happily have a pint with either of them if I ever got the chance.
Re: the whole "public sidewalk" thing. It's simply ludicrous to suggest that the police can't stop you. You drive on public roads and I'm pretty sure the police can pull you over.
Here's an idea - next time they try to you put your foot down and drive drive drive. Then explain your argument about "public space, they can't touch me" to the judge, LOL
