"Here is what some of you need to understand...and this time I assure you I'm not talking down to you or insulting you...I probably took that a little to far and because of other responses to me I certainly helped carry it on....."
bat: And we should believe you because you have been completely dishonest about your intentions so far on this board?
"The teachings of the LDS church are based on Joseph Smith and his declaration of his prophetic calling. Everything that the church is can be defined in that one principle. He is a prophet or not. If not then the church is a fake and we who are members and those that are dead have believed a lie."
bat: Well at least you admit the possiblility that you've been duped
"We know beyond all doubt that many of the evidences which are used to demonstrate his prophetic calling&;are absolutely infalible. And they are admitted by even the detractors. Why would they admit to those things. why would they say there doesn't seem to be an answer. Well, they also won't admit then that he must be a prophet....why?"
bat: Beyond all doubt? What is your proof? Your testimonkey? HA! Which detractors have admitted that JS,a.k.a. the child molester, is infalibly a prophet? JS was never a prophet, he was one of the most convincing frauds that the gullible American midwest has ever seen.
"From the beginning Smith turned the corner of the "worlds" he and the early members lived in up side down. He was a beloved prophet to some, a scoudrel to many. He taught things no one had ever heard of before...he scared a lot of people. The church moved into areas and would take over putting the citizenry in alarm. Certainly not all but some of the things which happened to the "saints" they brought on themselves. "
bat: Ya think? Move thousands of fanatical religious zealots into a small community and people get scared? Go figure.
"Many people wanted to get rid of the mormons and were finally successful by chasing them all the way to Utah."
bat: You are lying. Please provide evidence that anybody chased the mormons to Utah.
"The bottom line is this...we do not teach that anyone can know or understand the truth of things by his own study or intellect. WE believe if you want to know the truth GOD himself has to tell you. "
bat: Yea, you first have to decieve yourself into thinking that it's true, and then you will be able to convince yourself that the god has told you that it's true.
"J. Smith life was and is very controversial outside the confines of the church....so are others like Brigham Young.....but there is also great things that are said about him from people who have studied both sides of the issue and not members of the church. "
bat: I've studied the history intensely, and I'm now convinced that JS was a complete fraud, and BY was one of the most evil men the west has ever seen. Please refer to the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
"His teachings, though strange to some are not to those who claimed to have received a testimony by revelation (promised to those who diligently seek it)....."
bat: Please refer to "circular logic".
"The detractors at the time of Christ made many false accusations agaist him as well as every other prophet in the Bible. Irrefutable evidences can and are given to his prophet calling. they are only to help lead to a personal revelation of the truth which they seek. we do not ask anyone to accept our teachings or excommunicate members for questioning some church doctrine. (Like apparently the wts does) "
bat: The morg does indeed excommunicate members for questioning church doctrine. If they ask, they are given an answer. If they do not accept the answer, and continue to question it, they are ex'ed. ; Please refer to your Church Handbook of Instruction for further clarification.
"If anyone receives that witness do they need to question again if the revelation was true or if they can't fully understand why someone is making spurious comments about the church....do they still need to keep asking the question is it true?"
bat: Your point is invalidated once a person learns that they have been decieving themselves all along.
"Those who leave the church have never understood this...they are the ones who chose to leave.... they are always welcomed back. "
bat: It is you who do not understand. Once a person learns so much that they are able to consciously realize that the morg is a complete fraud, there is no reason to remain or ever go back. It makes no sense to live a lie.
"If someone said Smith did something that doesn't look just right do I loose the truth that I have attained to also question it....PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH WHO LEAVE THE CHURCH BECAUSE OF DOCTINAL ISSUES NEVER BELIVED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE..WHY DID CHRIST SAY NO ONE CAN KNOW THAT I AM THE CHRIST EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT...GOD HAS TO REVEAL IT TO YOU!!! "
bat: Who are you to judge the level of belief or commitment of another person? ; Just because you can't get past your cognizant dissonance, doesn't mean that anybody else isn't capable of taking the blinders off.
"Any way I don't think you'll get anyonr to respond to this from the ex mormons.....these people are not like ex JW's they are not vindictive over the control people had of their lives(with the exception of a very few who may have those feelings) "
bat: How exactly do you know what the ex-JW's are like? You are not God, and according to Gordo the Hinkster, you don't get to become a god anymore. Stop harassing these people and go find something else to do. Like reading "And it came to pass...." over and over.
"P.S. Don't ask Smith if he is a prophet ...ask GOD!!"
bat: I asked God, and she said that JS was a fraud.
Edited by - bat on 12 July 2002 2:44:24
