by Amazing 30 Replies latest jw friends
Just had to share this post from the ex-mormon board about Quantum - It was so funny but true!!
I think ex-JW's have seen idiots like Quantum before, though. One thing I can't figure out, is why he would go to an ex-JW board to debate the Mormon religion. Isn't that like going to a Pro-Life rally and arguing that Coke is better than Pepsi?
Now THAT is one great quote!
bat...
you're completely confused and irrelevant. Why would you take the time to re-edit my post and insert your little nothings. ...really, I can't help but laugh almost uncontrollably at you idiocy. show me some real stuff. Stop boring me and every body else.
Quantum...HE WHO KNOWS!
Really. Why not try to refute me. Let's see what you're really made of.
Edited by - bat on 12 July 2002 2:41:39
DAWN
the ex mormon doesn't have a clue why I'm here because he never saw all of the posts I made. that is precisly why he is an ex mormon. He never understood the religion in the first place...some just don't get it or anything else in their lives. You on the other hand aren't any better because you are the kind of person who enjoys proliferating falacious gossip and deception...just as you probably did as a JW going door to door.
Quantum......He never fails to hit the nail on the head!!!
Edited by - QUANTUM on 12 July 2002 2:50:5
Tough to hit that nail on the head when the nail is already bent. Why can't you back any of your claims up?
hey buddy if you want to find the answers you'll have to follow my posts on other threads.....I'm a busy man!!! don't be so dumb!
QUANTUM INCREDIBLY PATIENT
Bat...all you've done is do some name calling...where are some specific QUESTIONS!!!!!!
Q!
Ten Very Difficult Concerns on the LDS faith
1. SCIENCE AND LAMANITES -- Recent DNA research overwhelmingly claims that Native Americans (aka "Lamanites") are not Hebrew descendants as Joseph Smith asserted. According to anthropologists the Native Americans are primarily from Siberia/Mongolia and came to North America much earlier than 600 BCE. No DNA evidence even hints that the Book of Mormon's claim that a Hebrew group is the principal ancestor of the Native Americans is accurate. The DNA evidence of Native Americans coming overwhelmingly from Siberia/Mongolia is consistent with the well-established consensus theories of archaeologists, anthropologists and linguists. During the early 19 th century the idea that Native Americans were Hebrew descendents was an idea written and promoted by Ethan Smith (no known close relation to Joseph Smith) and possibly others before the timeline given by Joseph Smith for when he claimed to have translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God.
2. BOOK OF MORMON HISTORICITY -- Archaeologists from BYU and elsewhere are quoted as saying there is no validity to the topography of the Book of Mormon, and no evidence of the existence of any of the groups in the Book of Mormon. There are more than a dozen items and domestic species mentioned in the Book of Mormon that have never been known to have existed in the New World, such as: Egyptian hieroglyphs, metal swords, functional wheels, chariots, chains, carriages, brass armor, coins, glass, wheat, figs, olives, grapes, barley, sheep, oxen, goats, asses, horses, bulls, elephants.
3. BOOK OF ABRAHAM -- In the 1830s Joseph Smith obtained some mummies originating from the catacombs of Egypt which contained some papyri that Joseph Smith declared were written by Abraham the Old Testament patriarch by his own hand upon papyrus. Joseph Smith claimed to translate some of these writings into English by the power of God and the Church accepted this translation as true, correct and a scripture called the Book of Abraham (with its three facsimiles). Around 1846 the papyri were lost from the Church but returned in the late 1960s after being discovered in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. Since the 1830s the modern scholarly field of Egyptology has developed more maturely due to discoveries like the Rosetta Stone and the widespread dissemination of scholarly research information. This has made it possible to easily translate ancient Egyptian writings and verify Joseph Smiths claims whereas this was nearly impossible to do in the American frontier during the 1840s. Since the papyris rediscovery many of the worlds top Egyptologists have translated the papyri/facsimiles and have declared that Joseph Smiths translation is absolutely incorrect and that the papyri and facsimiles are common funeral text/engravings for individual(s) who lived after 500 BC in Egypt and they have nothing to do with Abraham at all. No group or body of scholars even pretends that Joseph Smith's divine transcriptions are partly accurate.
4. METHODS FOR RESOLVING SERIOUS CONCERNS -- It is difficult to understand how the methods of the LDS leadership and scholars on the serious issues regarding the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are completely honest. (1) The present-day leadership has consistently instructed members to proselyte the religion with people everywhere and that the members will be held accountable by God if they dont do all they can to help others learn about the religion and overcome any concerns they might have which keep them from progressing in the religion. Yet the leadership leaves the members to fend for themselves on these very difficult and important issues. This is most disturbing particularily regarding issues on the Book of Mormon because the Church teaches that its the foundation of the religion and that the Church is true if and only if its claim of the Book of Mormon being true scripture from the principal ancestors of the Native Americans. Members who suggest that the leadership should at least try to be honest and do all they can to help others sincerely understand a solution to these issues are subject to excommunication. Its well known that the leadership has purposely kept hidden much information on these issues from its members. (2) Those who do speak out publicly to defend the faith on these issues (such as scholars at BYUs FARMS) use tactics like ignoring inconvenient facts, revising history or by simply making up unsubstantiated scenarios which require incredible mental gymnastics to be considered remotely possible. On the Book of Abraham there are two key arguments often used by apologists to explain this dilemma (a) we havent found the correct papyri (yet we definitely have the facsimiles and they are clearly mistranslated by Joseph Smith), (b) the papyri wasnt actually the writings of Abraham but a catalyst for receiving revelation (yet we have many eyewitness accounts of Joseph Smith boldly declaring that the papyri was actually written by Abraham himself and the title page of the Book of Abraham even says by his own hand upon papyrus). On the Book of Mormon issues two popular theories have emerged - (a) the Lamanites mixed with natives from Siberia/Mongolia shortly after their arrival in the Americas (but the Book of Mormon clearly states that these people were kept hidden from the knowledge of all other people and that it was preserved for them after the Jaredite demise until the coming of European explorers after 1000 AD), (b) the Lamanites were never a large people and we have yet to find them (but the LDS leaders and Book of Mormon make it clear that this was a great civilization which was indeed the principal ancestor of almost all if not all of the Native Americans and that they will play a major role in the Churchs mission in preparation for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ).
5. POLYGAMY and Earthly/Scriptural LAWS -- In 1835 the Church introduced a book called the Doctrine and Covenants which was accepted by the membership as the word of the Lord and canonized as scripture. It contained an article (titled Section 101) which specifically forbade members of the Church from practicing polygamy. During the life of Joseph Smith no known attempts by him to remove this article from this book of scripture are known. When the Saints moved to Illinois the laws of that State also specifically prohibited polygamy. While in Nauvoo Joseph Smith wrote the Articles of Faith which contained phrases we believe in obeying, honor and sustaining the law and we believe in being honest, true, chaste. Yet Joseph Smith was secretly practicing polygamy in Nauvoo while publicly denying its practice. He also entered polygamous relationships behind the back of his wife Emma. Other Church leaders were also commanded to enter polygamy during this Nauvoo era but the Church leaders issued denials in discourse, with their own scriptures and even using excommunication as a tool to keep up the public image that they were not practicing polygamy. A newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor was started by some formerly faithful members who were outraged about the deceit over polygamy and Joseph Smith unlawfully ordered that the newspaper be destroyed after its 1 st publication. The destruction of this press is what resulted in Joseph Smiths incarceration at Carthage in June 1844 where he was killed in a gun battle. Finally in the 1850s after their arrival to Utah the Church leaders publicly announced that they had indeed been practicing polygamy despite all their previous denials. During the next three decades Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Joseph F. Smith and other top Church leaders publicly declared many times that polygamy was essential for exaltation and that it was Gods will that if the Church would ever give up the doctrine and mortal practice of polygamy then they would be damned. They were also taught that the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom was only reserved for those who would be polygamists. During this early era in Utah the 1835 Section 101 was removed from the Doctrine and Covenants and replaced by the present-day Section 132. There is also a myth in the Church that the practice of new sanctioned polygamous marriages was discontinued almost immediately in 1890 after the Manifesto was issued by Wilford Woodruff when in fact the practice continued to be sanctioned and extended privately by members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for over a decade while publicly denied in order to help facilitate the efforts for Utah Statehood and the Church getting their properties, temples and rights restored following their punishment and disenfranchisement for their defiance against the laws on polygamy. In fact Wilford Woodruff himself married an additional plural wife just 7 years after the Manifesto was issued. During the Reed Smoot Senate investigation around 1904 it was disclosed affirmatively by Church leaders that the Apostles (including Church President Joseph F. Smith) were purposely breaking the law and their promises to the federal government regarding polygamy. The Church finally took action to prevent all further authorizations of new polygamous marriages. In the present-day President Gordon B. Hinckley has said that polygamy is not doctrinal while many of his predecessors have declared that it was indeed doctrinal and absolutely essential to be practiced in this life for exaltation. The Church also continues to teach that God and his doctrines are unchanging.
6. MASONIC SYMBOLS AND WORDINGS -- The LDS Church heavily emphasizes to its members the importance of the Temple and the Endowment ordinance. Since the Nauvoo era the Church has received considerable criticism for plagiarizing the Masonic rites. In 1836 the first LDS temple was dedicated in Kirtland, Ohio and the Church teaches that Joseph Smith received the temple ordinance keys there. The ordinances performed in the Kirtland temple contained none of the unique characteristics that are commonly associated with Masonic rites. While in Nauvoo Joseph Smith became a Mason and six weeks later he introduced the Endowment ordinance which the Church teaches is essential for salvation. Those who are familiar with the Freemasonry rites and the Endowment will clearly recognize the exact plagiarism that exists in many places. Some early LDS leaders taught that the Masonic rites were apostate versions of the Endowment handed down and distorted from the time of King Solomons temple yet Freemasonry experts reject this analysis. In addition the Church leadership has made many changes to the Endowment since its introduction during the 1840s which lead many scholars to conclude that there are more differences between some portions of the 1840s Endowment and the 1990s Endowment than there were differences between some portions of the 1840s Masonic rites and 1840s Endowment. So if the Masonic rites were really an apostate version of the Endowment then one must accept that fewer changes were made to portions without prophetic guidance during 2700+ years in the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Middle Ages, Renaissance and American colonization eras than with prophetic guidance during the past 150 years where recordkeeping skills have generally been far better than those available in earlier times where printing presses and modern technology tools were unavailable. Today the members are not told by Church leaders about the similarities between the Masonic rites and the Endowment. Even if the defenders views about this issue are correct and the Endowment was indeed revealed from God to Joseph Smith its still undeniably PLAGIARISM because Joseph Smith knew about the Masonic wordings before he introduced the Endowment and no credit to the Masons for these wordings are fairly acknowledged by the Church today.
7. NATURE OF GOD AND OUR POTENTIAL -- During the last 2 decades of his life Brigham Young consistently taught that Adam was indeed God the Father. Many defenders of the faith like to claim that the critics twist his words out of context yet most honest scholars who carefully study his entire discourses attest that Brigham Young actually believed that Adam was indeed God the Father. Church leaders privately acknowledge that they believe that this is what Brigham Young meant. Some modern-day Church leaders like Spencer W. Kimball have publicly declared the Adam-God doctrine to be false. A belief is rampant in the Church that LDS Church leaders regularily talk to God face to face. The Church also teaches that God is unchanging. Yet how could a true prophet believe that God was Adam yet just a century later another true prophet believe that God is not Adam? Joseph Smith once taught that God was once a man and that men may become gods. LDS leaders have consistently counseled members that if they will do all that God expects of them in this life then they will become gods in the hereafter. This goal has been a great cause for so many members sacrificing so much in this life because of this goal for the hereafter. Yet the current Church President Gordon B. Hinckley has seriously confused the members about whether such a goal is really in the works. In several media interviews he was asked about this teaching of God once being a man and he said I dont know that we teach that its more a couplet than anything. Essentially it appears to observers that President Hinckley is confirming that the Church really doesnt know what is going to happen in the hereafter and that all these ideas about God being a man and men becoming gods is just a couplet or myth.
8. GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT -- Church youth and members are taught that the leadership is blessed with special spiritual gifts such as the gift of discernment. This teaching is used as a fear tactic to get members to both gossip about each other to Church leaders and to discuss very personal private matters with Church leaders. Yet from 1925 to 1943 one of the prophet, seer, revelator, apostles named Richard Lyman (a member of the Quorum of the Twelve) was secretly practicing polygamy and committing adultery yet was never detected for 18 years by any of the other leaders and the members-at-large were required to accept him as a prophet, seer, revelator, apostle or else be considered apostate. Once Lymans activities were reported he was quickly excommunicated but it remains an acknowledged fact that his violations of the LDS chastity rules went undiscerned by his leaders for 18 years. During the 1980's a living Mormon prophet and many apostles were personally duped by the charisma of master-forger Mark Hoffman (since convicted of murder), who presented them with documents he specifically designed to interest them by containing controversial historical data which he anticipated they would want to suppress.
9. DISCLOSURE & ACCOUNTABILITY -- The Church carefully guards access to its detailed finances, funding and statistics while it makes tremendous effort to gather such information and use it to further its purposes. The Church does not allow its general membership to know any typical details that large non-profit organizations usually release. Tithing (often defined by church leaders as 10% of a persons gross income) are mandatory in order to be considered temple worthy and many people have had to be excluded from being able to attend the wedding of a son, daughter, brother, sister or other close relative/friend because of this tithing requirement. LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income and temporal blessings from paying tithes, yet Utah (where most residents are LDS) remains one of the poorest states in the US, ranks among the highest in personal bankruptcies, and ranks among the highest in use of anti-depressant medications.
10. IS HONESTY IMPORTANT? -- The Church teaches that complete honesty is necessary for salvation. They teach that we will be accountable to God if we only tell part of the truth because this is dishonesty. They teach that there are NO acceptable reasons to be dishonest. The living prophet today (Gordon B. Hinckley) tells us that honesty is the essence of integrity and demands that we be straightforward, unequivocal, in walking the straight and narrow line of what is right and true even at times when it might seem enticing or easier to cheat. The Church has also taught that all truths will consistently meet the challenges of their critics and emerge triumphant and that only error needs to fear freedom of expression. They key scripture introduced by the missionaries in the 1st discussion is "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7) and this scripture is used to emphasize that the Church's foundation rests on God conducting his affairs on the earth through prophets today. Yet its difficult for many honestly seeking the Spirit to really understand how the Church leaders can really be following their own teachings to be completely honest in leading and guiding and that they have ever really repented of any times when they may have been less than completely honest .
See Simon - this would have been a GREAT thread to use that BA icon
Doesn't Quantum use very large
fonts?
Why?
Because he has very little to say.
His posts are filled up with large fonts.
It is rather like a rock star stuffing socks down his croch.
He really, really hopes the audience will think he has gigantic
wedding tackle.
But Quantum? Nah! All he fires are blanks.
