You can believe in me if you wish. I can tell that most people are good so that's all that's really needed. As for the bible, I'll be the first to admit its a load of crap. Dad wrote one night when we had been drinking heavily. We're amazed that so many people actually believe everything in it!
Mormonism - a few points
by Amazing 26 Replies latest jw friends
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SusanHere
I must agree with Double Edge that I really hate people who bash other people's religions. If you want to bash your own, or the one you left, feel free. But to bash the religions of others just smacks of you having a "deeply biased mindset" (towards any and all religion).
I know many of you have been hurt by religion in the past, but to assume that because of your experience all religions must necessarily be equally destructive is really absurd. If I said I hate all (pick any minority) because I saw a drunk one once and they're everyone knows they're all like that, you'd jump all over me for such illogical thinking. Yet you do the same to other religions and people tend to just lap it up and beg for more.
Double Edge is right, too, that to say you've looking into a religion for x number of years means nothing if all you were trying to do was to "nail them on their different theology". No wonder God judges on the heart and not on externals. You can carry all the church membership cards you feel like toting around, but none of them mean zilch if all they are is evidence you are on somebody's list. What counts is what is in your heart, your mind, your soul, and how those things translate into action towards your fellow man (woman, child, animal, earth, etc.).
Amazing -- Interesting name. But not an amazing posting. BOM is not fiction. It is not "easily unraveled". And yes, the average Mormon has excellent comprehension as to what it has to say.
As for the recording of our temple ceremonies, we do not chant. There are no chants. We do not chant to Jehovah's name in the temple. The recording was false.
Double Edge covered your mistakes with the tithing doctrine. It is 10%. Period. And it is between you and the Bishop. Nobody else is involved. And nobody is forced to pay. And there is no "proving" with pay stubs. I've never yet shown a bishop a pay stub or a tax receipt. Many full-fledged members are not paying full or even part tithing for reasons I won't bother to list here.
My sister sent me a WT that supposedly was more positive towards Mormonism. She thought I'd be impressed at how unbiased it was. Took me a long time to respond to her. When I did, I was kinder than the article deserved. Though it started out pleasantly enough, it soon degenerated into the typical mudslinging expected from that publication whenever it "covers" anything about Mormonism. It was NOT a positive article.
Emperor Class -- you said when talking to mormons you would open to the last page of the BOM where it says Jehovah, and they were surprised most of the time. What would they supposedly be surprised about? Do you think we don't use the name of Jehovah? We do. Do we use it as JWs do? No.
As to the poster who said he was "rushed" into baptism in a week after a "disorienting" whirlwind of "Easter egg hunt" surprise meeting changes and intense psychological pressure...Sorry, but that's utter garbage. They don't have any desire to trick anyone into baptism, nor do they baptize anyone who doesn't pass several interviews with several different people indicating full understanding and willing intention to actually become a member. And how did you manage to get six lessons in one week? Plus the interviews? My missionary sons have refused to baptize people many times, because the people were not ready, or hadn't cleared up some matter, or the missionaries didn't feel the timing was right.
Harassing phone calls? No. Calls at 11 pm -- not from the missionaries. They are in bed before then. Mission rules. Church-wide. Obviously, you are one of those with an agenda that doesn't include attention to accuracy. I hope you are happier in whatever religion you went to next.
I really don't mind honest criticism, or people stating what they themselves experienced and so believe to be the truth for everyone involved in the religion. Not every religion is going to meet everyone's needs. That's why there are so many to choose from. Find the one you like, and leave the others alone. If you really need to rip one apart, at least be sure it is one you were a member of long enough to actually have the lowdown on that church. Is this really too much to expect?
Susan
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Double Edge
Well said Susan, well said!. You sound like the Mormans I know - intelligent, articulate, very normal and "cool"....not the half-crazed, in-your-face recent poster who went by the name QUANTUM.
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Matt_exmo
Susan, he did not -being fair- mention 11pm calls from Missionaries. Have you never had 11pm phone calls from fellow Mormons? Then count yourself lucky. You have not seen peopled rushed into baptism within a very short period of time? Again, count yourself lucky. I think it depends -in part- on the Mission President. Some of them are sensible, others gungho, "get them to commit to baptism as soon as you can and baptise 'e m by the dozen!" types.
BTW, I'd have to argue with you. I believe that the BOM is nothing but a work of fiction.
Edited by - Matt_exmo on 18 July 2002 21:26:10
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joenobody
I'd like to challenge your statements Susan - saying the BOM is not "easily unravelled" as Amazing says. Have you looked into the history behind the BOM? Do you know about it's connections to transcribed mistakes from early KJV versions of the Bible? Ask a Mormon just which of the many versions of Doctrines and Covenants is the correct one. Also, get back to me on the Book of Abraham... err Egyptian Book of the Dead! Finally, just where are those gold plates? Seems like an awful thing to have lost. Please tell me about the extent of your research.
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zev
you mean this article????
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*** g95 11/8 17-18 A Young Man's Search for Answers *** A Young Mans Search for Answers
THE morning sun shone brightly, filtering down through the trees to a boy kneeling in fervent prayer. Fourteen-year-old Joseph was confused by the religious tumult of his time. Traditional churches were racked with division. New sects were everywhere. Which group should he join? On bended knee he asked: Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
Thus Joseph Smith described his early spiritual crisis. Little wonder he was confused. This was rural northeastern America in the early 19th century, a region ablaze with religious fervor. Hope was sorely needed. Many farmers struggled with a life as hard as the rocky soil they plowed. Yearning for something better, they were tantalized by tales of buried Indian treasure. So they combed the hills, armed with magic seer stones, incantations, and divining rods. Local legends told of a great Indian civilization that perished in a terrible battle somewhere in New York State.
Popular preachers of the day fanned the fires of speculation, saying that the American Indians were descended from the lost ten tribes of Israel. In 1823, for example, Ethan Smith wrote the book View of the Hebrews; or the Tribes of Israel in America.
Golden Plates and a Prophet
Raised in this fertile climate of folklore and religious ardor was young Joseph Smith. His family too was caught up in the excitement. Josephs mother wrote of their experiencing healings, miracles, and visions. But when she and some of the children joined a church, Joseph refused to follow. Later, in his life story, he wrote of his prayer for help and the answer he received.
Joseph told of a vision in which God forbade him to join any of the sects because they were all in error. Then, one autumn day in 1823, the 17-year-old Smith told his family that an angel named Moroni had shown him a set of ancient golden plates. Four years later he claimed he was given the plates and the exclusive divine power to translate them, which required using a special stone called a seer stone and a pair of magic silver spectaclestwo smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass. It meant instant death for others to see the plates at that time, Smith warned.
Smith, who could read but not write well, dictated the translation of the plates to several scribes. Sitting behind a curtain, he related a story said to be compiled by a Hebrew man named Mormon. The plates were inscribed in reformed Egyptian writing, Smith explained, which was more compact than Hebrew. Mormon and his son Moroni were described as being among the last survivors of a people called the Nephite nation, fair-skinned descendants of Hebrews said to have migrated to America about 600 B.C.E. to escape Jerusalems destruction.
The account relates that Jesus had appeared to this nation in America after his death and resurrection and had chosen 12 Nephite apostles. The Lamanites, a people also of Hebrew descent, were rebellious and warlike and so were cursed by God with dark skin. Mormons account principally chronicled the ongoing battles between these two nations. The Nephites grew wicked and eventually were annihilated by the Lamanites, who were ancestors of the American Indians.
According to Smith, Mormons son, now the spirit Moroni, had given him the record on golden plates and the commission leading to the restoration of Christs church. Smith soon had a following. A prosperous believer financed the publishing of Smiths manuscript called The Book of Mormon. It appeared in print in the spring of 1830. Two weeks later, Joseph Smith announced his official title: Seer, a Translator, a Prophet, an Apostle of Jesus Christ. On April 6, 1830, the Mormon Church, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was born.
Smith had a commanding presence that won the devotion of many converts. But his unconventional religion also made enemies. The fledgling church was hounded; its members fled from New York to Ohio and then to Missouri in search of its New Jerusalem. As prophet, Smith uttered revelation after revelation, pronouncing Gods will on matters ranging from financial donations to a divine mandate to take multiple wives. This latter revelation particularly spawned much persecution. Faced with suspicion and antagonism at every turn, the Mormons took up arms to defend themselves.
The intrigue and turmoil that marked the early years of Joseph Smiths life never abated. Frontier towns, inundated with influxes of Smiths followers, put up stiff resistance. They had use neither for another sacred book nor for a self-proclaimed prophet. Then, in 1839, to the dismay of the local populace, the Mormons established a thriving colony, with its own mills, factory, university, and militia, in Nauvoo, Illinois. When hostilities erupted, Smith was arrested and jailed in Carthage, Illinois. There, on June 27, 1844, a mob raided the jail and shot and killed him.
The Church Survives Its Prophet
The story by no means ends with Joseph Smiths death. Brigham Young, president of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, quickly assumed command and led many believers on a perilous journey to the Great Salt Lake valley in Utah, where the Mormon headquarters are to this day.
The church founded by Joseph Smith continues to attract converts, with, according to LDS sources, some nine million members worldwide. It has spread far beyond its cradle in New York State to places as diverse as Italy, the Philippines, Uruguay, and Zaire. Despite continued antagonism, the remarkable Mormon Church has prospered. Is it, indeed, the restoration of true Christianity for which men of faith have waited?
[Footnotes]
Historians later dubbed this area in western New York State the burned-over district because of the waves of short-lived religious revivals that swept the region during the early 1800s.
Originally named The Church of Christ, on April 26, 1838, it became The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or LDS. Though LDS is the designation preferred by members, the name Mormon (derived from The Book of Mormon) is also used in this series of articles, since it is the more familiar term to many readers.
There are various groups that have broken away from the LDS, who also call themselves Mormons. Principal among them is the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, with headquarters in Independence, Missouri.
[Picture Credit Line on page 17]
Photo: Courtesy Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints/Dictionary of American Portraits/Dover
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Double Edge
I believe that the BOM is nothing but a work of fiction.
Ok, maybe, but then again numerous people on this board agree the the Bible too is a work of fiction, so I guess it's in good company.
Finally, just where are those gold plates?
Could they be in the same place as the original scrolls from the Books of the Bible?Edited by - Double Edge on 19 July 2002 18:6:34
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julien
SusanHere: Amazing wrote that pay stubs (or equivalent) were required to get "Temple Recommend". In effect you must prove you tithed 10% before getting this status or whatever it is. Are you saying that is not the case?
Also: SusanHere or Double Edge please explain why the BOM has the transcription mistakes from the KJV in it.
Also: I once heard that one of the BOM chapters was stolen, and Smith was unable to reproduce it, so he instead replaced it with a paraphase type thing. Is this true?
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Crazy151drinker
Double Edge + Susan
My best friend is Mormon. He and his Cousin bash other religions NON STOP!! Catholics this, Islam that, We are the only right ones.. blah blah blah
Talk about pressure! All they do is pressure confused people into joining. QUANTEM is not unique.
The issue of Mormon questionable/fake origins goes way beyond the plates that no one has ever seen. There is not one thread of Archeological proof that any kindom/people/city in the book fo Mormon ever existed. You can go to Isreal and see the cities and places that were mentioned in the Bible. Nothing that is mentioned in the book of Mormon has ever been found!! Why arnt the Mormons looking for these great cities???? The American Indians have never heard of these grand kingdoms or people and they have been here for thousands of years!
Even if you do not believe in Jesus as a mesiah, you can still go to his birthplace. The Pharohs, and Egypt, and Jerusilum, the red sea, the sea of galileah, etc. etc.. all are talked about in the bible and all have proven to exist and many still exist today! Where is Aroms kingdom in North America?? Why are there no people, no buildings, nothing????
The Mormon religion has more holes than swiss cheese :)
Lets not even get into how we were all angels, how we can be gods and create our own worlds.....
I find it funny that they use the same example as the JWs about the cross "would you wear a gun on your neck if your father was murded....blah blah blah"
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Double Edge
Also: SusanHere or Double Edge please explain why the BOM has the transcription mistakes from the KJV in it.
Got me, but I'll ask around...I assume KJV is King James.