Crazy: If your best friend is Morman, why don't you ask them the archeological questions? I'm sure they've been asked before...let us know what he/she says, because I'm interested in the answer. But you do bring up something I remember studying when I was a teenager. There was no proof that there ever existed the city of Jericho. Then about 10 or 15 years ago they found it - a site that they believe to be it. Also, I was watching the a cable show a few weeks ago (History Channel or Discovery) and up until very recently, there was no evidence that Joseph, the Pharoahs Overseer ever existed in Egypt. In fact, there was no proof that the Hebrews were ever in Egypt as slaves. This from a nation that kept fairly accurate records. What's that all about. But I am going to look on the internet for the other stuff you brought up
Mormonism - a few points
by Amazing 26 Replies latest jw friends
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Crazy151drinker
Double:
They gave me either : God destroyed them all or read the book of Mormon and you will understand. And this is from a Mormon who missioned for 2 years! QUANTEM posted that there was evidence that the Mayans were the great kingdom mentioned. Yeah right! Im not saying that 100% of everything in the bible is correct. Hey, were talking a couple of thousand years of history here! But there are MANY things in it that A: have proved to have happened B: Still exist!
Nothing in the Book of Mormon exists! Its Bull!
Also look into the Animals in the Book of Mormon. Somewhere it mentions animals that the Europeans brought over in the 1500's!
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Double Edge
Mormans believe that Jesus visited the "new world" after his resurrection, or so their Book of Morman claims, to which numerous posters have said there is no 'shred' of any evidence as to it being real. I don't know if it's real or not, but I just spent the last hour on the internet researching "Aztecs belief in Christ"...several references came up, including one from the El Paso City College:
http://www.epcc.edu/ftp/Homes/monicaw/borderlands/17_aztec_beliefs.htm
Some interesting highlights:
"Gugumatz, Kukulcan, Viracocha, Votan, Quetzalcoatl - all are names for one god common to Mesoamerican peoples before the arrival of Columbus and other Europeans. The Toltecs, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs and other tribes worshipped many gods they believed directed various aspects of their lives, but archaeologists and historians have concluded that the figure called by these different names is probably one and the same.
According to legend, Quetzalcoatl, as he was known in Mexico, taught the natives their religion, art and science. Mesoamerican reverence for this god helped prepare the way for Hernn Corts and other European explorers to conquer the New World.
Quetzalcoatl, like some gods in other mythologies, was part human and part god. Some believe Quetzalcoatl's father was the god Mixcoatl, known as Sky Father of Cloud Serpent. Others see his father as a sun god. The Aztecs believed that his mother, a virgin named Chimalma, became pregnant by swallowing an emerald and them giving birth in the year 1-Reed. Being part human and part god made Quetzalcoatl grow to be very wise and cultured.
Legends say that Quetzalcoatl was tall and light-skinned, with blonde hair and a beard, in contrast to the natives who were short, dark skinned and dark haired. He is said to have worn a long, flowing robe. Quetzalcoatl was special because he was a god of creation. The Incas believed that he made the sun, moon, stars, and planets. The Mayans believed that with Tepeu, another god, he helped create the earth, mountains, streams and all animals. But his fines creation was man because other forms of life could not think about and worship their creator. ....
The Mesoamericans believed that Quetzalcoatl lived on earth with the people who worshiped him, teaching religion, moral, art and science. He brought good laws and sound doctrine, as well as prosperity to the people. One Aztec poem says, "Truly with him it began, truly from him it flowed out, from Quetzalcoatl all art and knowledge."
On earth, Quetzalcoatl was regarded as a saintly and good man, who taught the natives to avoid bad habits and sin. He introduced baptism to the Mesoamericans as a form of penance. Ixtlilxochitl, an Aztec poet, says that Quetzalcoatl reverenced the cross and taught that through fasting, humans could overcome their passions and dishonesty.
Quetzalcoatl bought beauty to the land and taught through art that beauty could be applied to all surroundings. Mexican scholar Angel Garibay says that all types of beautiful colored singing birds come to the land at the time of Quetzalcoatl's life on earth. He helped build new cities with beautiful houses of silver, green stones, white and colored shell, turquoise, and exquisite feathers.
As the god of sciences, Quetzalcoatl taught the Aztecs astronomy and gave them their calendar. He taught the natives how to work with metals and also gave them their writing. Thus the people prospered, never lacking for anything including gold, which was so available that it was worthless. Crops were huge and the harvests always prosperous. The people were happy.
Legends do not agree on why Quetzalcoatl left his people and the land, taking all prosperity with him. Poet Ixtlilxochitl wrote that he left because the people paid very little attention to his teachings.
He traveled to the east and told the people that he would return in the future. But before he did, the natives would suffer and would be persecuted. At the eastern coast, Quetzalcoatl sailed away on a raft of serpents and the people looked forward to his return.
It is no wonder, then, that the Indians were not surprised when Hernn Corts arrived in Mexico. When he entered the country in 1519, the Aztecs were living in a "ce catl" or 1-reed year, a potential time for their god Quetzalcoatl to return. Like him, Corts landed ashore on a raft o boat. And Corts was tall, bearded and light-skinned. With him were servants carrying crosses (priests).
Scholars say Corts began to pose as Quetzalcoatl when he learned about the god. The Spanish possessed powerful weapons, the like of which the Aztecs had never seen, helping the Europeans to appear omnipotent. Many similarities between references to Jesus and Christianity and the Mesoamerican Quetzalcoatl also existed.
The native belief in Quetzalcoatl became a thorn in the side of the Spanish priests as they attempted to spread their own beliefs among these civilizations. The Spanish admit to finding beautiful books but burned them because "The Devil has got here ahead of us and has shown false Christianity," as Diego de Landa, Bishop of the Yucatn wrote. Vernon W. Mattson in his work "The Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Important Discoveries" says, "In one place alone, they burned 100,000 Mayan books."
Quetzalcoatl has been called by some "the most influential person of the Americans." Stone engravings referring to him have been dated back to 300 BC, and legends date back over 2,000 years. Today, all Mesoamerican school children study about him and legends about him inspire scholars and archeologists to keep studying these ancient cultures."-end of quote-
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Proof - no, but the similarities are incredible, and I just got this from the Yahoo search engine. One last thing...I found the reference to the gold was so abundant that it was worthless an interesting fact, considering that the original manuscripts were supposedly written on sheets of gold.
I wonder what Quantum would of thought of this.....nawwwww, never mind, who needs all that crazyness and grief.
Edited by - Double Edge on 19 July 2002 21:4:30
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Double Edge
Crazy:
Also look into the Animals in the Book of Mormon. Somewhere it mentions animals that the Europeans brought over in the 1500's!
I assume that you mean Cortez and horses, correct?
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Crazy151drinker
I think somewhere in the Book of Mormon it talks about cows and horses- animals which didnt come over until the europeans arrived.
This weekend I got into it big time with my buddy and his missionary cousin. They preached to me for over 2 hours about the 'Truth'. Yadda Yadda Yadda. Finally I told him that I would listen to his points when they found the plates. HE GOT PISSED and claimed I was insulting his religious beliefs. I told him that A: He just preached to me for 2 hours. B: He slams christians and the cross all the time. How is he going to preach to me and then when I question his beliefs he gets pissed??? EXCUSE ME if I dont believe everything people tell me! HELLO! I think for myself!
His response to the plates was : "There were 21 people who signed sworn affidavids saying that they had seen the plates!" Wow, 21 people. I bet I could walk around town and find at least 21 people who thought they were Jesus! LOL.
And as far as the AZTECS, they practised HUMAN SACRAFICE! If Christ was there GOD, I dont think he would teach that!!!!!!
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Crazy151drinker
Oh and to top it all off, they were both drinking and smoking POT while they where lecturing me! Something that both would get DF'd for!!!!! PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!!! YOUR RELIGION IS SO 'TRUE' AND YET HERE BOTH OF YOU ARE VIOLATING IT!!!!!
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Double Edge
Oh and to top it all off, they were both drinking and smoking POT while they where lecturing me!
They don't seem like the "typical" Mormans to ask questions of ...so why invest 2-hours of your time with someone who apparantly doesn't live their religion.....it doesn't make sense.
And as far as the AZTECS, they practised HUMAN SACRAFICE! If Christ was there GOD, I dont think he would teach that!!!!!!
That's apples and oranges. The point is, I found from a non-biased source on the internet that the Aztecs had a belief that went back 2000 years in a 'god' who's similarities to Christ are striking. By the time the Spaniards had arrived, of course the 'legend' had changed somewhat and obviously they weren't practicing what that god taught.
This is the quote that got me:
The native belief in Quetzalcoatl became a thorn in the side of the Spanish priests as they attempted to spread their own beliefs among these civilizations. The Spanish admit to finding beautiful books but burned them because "The Devil has got here ahead of us and has shown false Christianity," as Diego de Landa, Bishop of the Yucatn wrote. Vernon W. Mattson in his work "The Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Important Discoveries" says, "In one place alone, they burned 100,000 Mayan books
Of course, your statement below got me curious again...I'm going to look on the internet about cows and horses before Columbus.
I think somewhere in the Book of Mormon it talks about cows and horses- animals which didnt come over until the europeans arrived.