I really have to go and make sure tea doesn't burn... and then of course it's the group!?!
But I will be coming back here later to see what's what!
NGO ? Please help!
by Bosho 54 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Bosho
oh well!
The fire alarm will let me know when it's cooked!
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for being so suportive, (especialy xander and larc)
I surely will let everyone here know what sort of someback I get from bethel (if any!)
I bet they then forward the letter to my elders who will want to know where I found all the information.
What happens to people who speak to "apostates" ( no offense!) again? I may be on here as more than a bystander soon!
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JanH
Bosho,
It is indeed quite astonishing we find so little mention of a historical Jesus in the writings of contemporary historians of the day. Actually, what we have is one mention in Josephus that probably -- but not necessarily -- is genuine.
It is perhaps even more surprising that the earliest Christian author, Paul, doesn't really talk about the historical person Jesus at all. He seemed to have no interest whatsoever in what Jesus said and did on Earth; if he at all knew about the man that the later gospel accounts try to describe.
There are two references in extrant mss of Josephus:
One is the reference in Antiquities 20.9.1: "Ananus, therefore, being of this character, and supposing that he had a favorable opportunity on account of the fact that Festus was dead and Albinus was still on the way, called together the Sanhedrin and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the one called (the) Christ [ton adelphon Iesou tou legomenou Christou], James by name, together with some others and accused them of violating the law, and condemned them to be stoned" (bold added)
This is the version that is actually thought to be original. It is unlikely that any Christian interpolator would write "the so-called Christ", as we will see in the obvious interpolation that follows here:
The second is in Antiquities 18:3:3 "Now about this time there lived Jesus a wise man, if one ought to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, [a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure]. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who in the first place had come to love him did not forsake him. For he appeared to them alive again on the third day, as the holy prophets had predicted these and many other wonderful things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, continues to the present day."
It is glaringly obvious that Josephus, an observant Jew who was no friend of any secterian movements, would never write about Jesus that "he was the Messiah." It says something about the lack of any source critical methodology that the authenticity of this absurd passage was not challenged until modern text critical methods were developed. The modern source critical challenge has simply been to try to recostruct the original. Did the original mention Jesus at all? Perhaps. And then again, I have seen good arguments that it did not. No half serious scholar, however, seriously believe that Josephus wrote the above.
I strongly recommend reading Earl Doherty's quite detailed "Supplementary Article 10" to his "Was There No Historical Jesus?" work, where he examines Josephys to some detail. It can be read in its entirity here: http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/supp10.htm
- Jan
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Bosho
Thanks Jan
The fire alarm has gone off so I really have to go and save the tea, but I'm very grateful for your reference and I will be going there as soon as I can!
thanks again to everyone!
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Hmmm
Get ready for a visit by the elders if you send information off to Bethel. You'll have to explain why you're visiting "apostate" sites.
I'm with larc: Give the whole God/no god issue some time. I've been out for years and that issue is still on the back burner for me. It just aint that important in my life right now. If there is a God, I'm sure she'll understand that I'm a little gun-shy
I would also recommend reading Crisis of Conscience, by former governing body member Ray Franz. It's fascinating to see how things really worked behind the scenes, and he does a good job of reasoning on the whole "organization" issue.
Hmmm
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hawkaw
Xander,
Sorry for taking soooooo long in getting back to you.
Your contact for the UN Depository Library is Ms. Barbara Morton at the Social Science Department of the Cleveland Public Library.
She may be reached tomorrow (not today) at - 216-623-2860
Her location is - Cleveland Public Library, Social Science Department, 325 Superior Av., Cleveland, Ohio, USA, 44114
She does not have the 2001-2002 directory or any other directory. However, she can order you one in from the main branch in New York.
Go to Randy's or Zev's site and print the scanned front cover of the Directories. Take them with you when you go to visit Ms. Morton. It will help both her and you when she does the ordering for you.
The 2001-2002 directory has a blue cover and lists Don Adams as President. The older directories, 1994, 1995, 1997 and the 1999-2000 ones all have Lloyd Berry as the officer of the corporation.
Have fun my friend.
hawk
p.s. - Bosho: I want to make sure you get your wording right. The Watchtower is STILL an nongovernmental organization (NGO). In reality, an NGO is any not for profit company. But what is important is that the Watchtower, as an NGO, applied for "association" status with the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI) in 1991. In February, 1992, the DPI granted the Watchtower "association" and the Watchtower became an "associated NGO" with DPI. Part of the requirements of being an "associated NGO" with the DPI is that the orgnaization must support the charter of the UN. Chapter 7 or 8 of the Charter requires the UN to use military force and that is a bigtime no no in Watchtower land.
Please - http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69
and also and just as important are the 1991 and 1976 Watchtower magazine comments with the Robert Muller quote that use NGOs to show how christendom represent herself with the beast. Of course the WTS would never do that would she - LOL Please go to these sites:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21916&site=3
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=27169&site=3 (You will note that freeservers forbids linking now so to read what Muller wrote, just move your mouse over the "forbidden message" and right click. Go to properties and click. You will see the url thread for that specific document).
Edited by - hawkaw on 16 July 2002 13:15:45
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Xander
WOW, Hawk, thanks a TON!!
I'll do that - thanks again!
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Quotes
Hawks thorough post contained:
The 2001-2002 directory has a blue cover and lists Don Adams as President.
WOW! You mean Don Adams, that cheesy Canadian-born actor who played Maxwell Smart on TV's Get Smart and later provided the lead voice for the TV cartoon show Inspector Gadget is president of the Watchtower Society now? Cool!!! Go Don Adams! I knew your career wasn't over! Can't wait to see him at an assembly! Maybe he can be in the drama, goodness knows recent dramas could use some humour to liven it up a bit.
(Sorry, I just couldn't resist that! )
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Bosho
Hawkaw
Thanks for the links.
Can I just clear something up?
I take it that because WBTS is a religion they are automatically a NGO, even though they have left the NGO directory they are still NGO? Are they NGO purely by definition of status?
If I organised a religion tomorrow ( and made loads of money!) would I automatically become a NGO?
The fact that they actively signed an agreement aligned them with the UN and not NGO specifically. have I got that right?
I read the articles and even got out my cdrom to check! Oh dear!
Larc,
How right you are! small doses! Like nothing at all!
I thought I'd declared that I was going to shave my hair off and run round naked with a pitchfork in my hand!
Horror, true horror on their faces! (My inlaws, who I just love to bug anyway!) My mother in law even went to far as to say that if I did another twenty hours on the service each day I'd not have these doubts. (HUH? fail to see connection there!)
I absolutely loved informing her and then showing her how the freedom book did say 1975 was a "landmark" year. she denied it so firmly, saying it was what people had seen into it and not what was actaully there!
Thansk to several of your and other threads I was able to show exactly where they did say it!
Oh well..... small doses like you said!
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Gopher
Bosho,
The WT Society served the UN as one of it's NGO"s (non-governmental organizations) from 1991 until 2001 when they were "outed" by the apostates.
They were not/are not automatically an NGO. That is a status that has to be applied for, and approved by the proper governing body within the UN. As an NGO, you help to disseminate the message of and provide positive publicity for the UN, publicly supporting its aims.
Again the WTS has not been affiliated with the UN since October 2001. Had not the "apostates" raised the issue, they probably still would be an NGO.
Gopher