THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know 134 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • You Know
    You Know

    The dilemma facing apostate Jehovahs Witnesses, or apostate Dubs, as I have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success. What does that mean? One of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the Watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of Jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization. In what way? In that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the Governing Body, the Watchtower Society's teachings, as well as individual Jehovah's Witnesses, then that somehow means that Jehovah's Witnesses have no connection with Jehovah God. That fatal presumption is tragically reinforced by the Watchtower's own presentation of itself as a near-perfect spokesman for God that is presumably above and beyond Jehovah's own rebuke.

    In spite of the fact that the Bible's numerous prophecies and historical accounts of God's dealings with his people outline in considerable detail how Jehovah and Christ intend to deal with the present lawless situation aflicting us, the average Witness does not have the spiritual wherewithal and competency to apply these to the organization of which he is a part and still maintain his own loyalty to it. And, because the Watchtower, whom the faithful rely upon, has directed nearly all of the Bible's adverse counsel against the clergy, or they have relegated their fulfillment to the relatively insignificant 1914-1919 period, it has left the faithful vulnerable when they are exposed to the growing mountain of accusation against us. No wonder Christ mused: "When the Son of man arrives will he really find the faith on the earth?"

    As an example of how the Bible speaks in an indirect manner to the present situation consider the case of Moses. He is presented in the Bible as one of the most important figures, and yet he received Jehovah's stern rebuke and what amounted to a death sentence. God is quoted as saying to Moses: "That is enough of you. Never speak to me again on this matter." And, yet, this Moses was considered by God himself to be the meekest man among his contemporaries. Furthermore, consider the accusations of apostates in Moses' day who accused Moses of leading them out into the Wilderness to die. After several decades of wandering in the Wilderness Dathan and Abiram would seem to have some justification in saying that Moses had not lead them into any land flowing with milk and honey, as they had been promised, and that Moses was responsible for their children dying in the desert. Were those accusations true? Yes. No doubt many Hebrew children and infants died in the desert due to the harshness of the environment. And, yet, Jehovah supported Moses and considered the accusations as directed against him personally, which of course they were for the reason that the Jews were wandering in the Wilderness as a result of Jehovahs sentence upon them. Moses had noting to do with it.

    Those who have not lost all spiritual comprehension can see a definite pattern here, in that the Governing Body are similarly accused of not leading the faithful into any paradise earth as they supposedly promised. What is more, like Moses, the Governing Body is also accused of causing the deaths of our children by their misguided blood policy. Again, the prophecies assure the faithful, as well as the unfaithful, that at some point during the worlds great time of trouble, Jehovah is going to break his silence and take up the legal matters embroiling his organization.

    David is another example of the most prominent leader of Jehovahs nation being on the receiving end of Gods withering rebuke, and not only that, but his folly brought ostracism upon the entire nation. Not just the bloodguilt and adultery in the case of the Bathsheba affair, but more relative to today's situation is the instance where David committed the blunder of ordering a census. The account specifically says that Satan induced David, against the advice of his own advisor, Joab. The result was that Jehovah brought a plague upon the nation that resulted in the deaths of several tens of thousands of David's subjects. A modern parallel to David's ill-advised census might be the numerous organizational formalities like reporting field service and such. In any case, the point being, that, as Jesus pointed out when discussing his faithful slave that those who are put in charge have more than usual demanded of them. And, that all of Jehovah's people can be held accountable for the error of their leaders. That point is lost upon those who abandon their faith merely because of the error and hypocrisy on the part of some of those taking the lead, as if that relieved any of us from standing before Jehovah in judgment.

    As an example of how the prophecies speak to us, consider the oft-quoted verse of Zephaniah, where it speaks of God giving to peoples the change to a pure language. That change is to come about as it says in the preceding verse, when God pours out his denunciation upon the nations, in other words---during the tribulation. "Then," it says that God will give the foretold change to a pure and uncontaminated language of truth. Down in verse 11 God goes on to say that he will forgive his people of their transgressions and that, "I shall remove from the midst of you your haughtily exultant ones; and you will never again be haughty I my holy mountainAs regards the remaining ones of Israel, they will do no unrighteousness, nor speak a lie, nor will there be found in their moths a tricky tongue" That prophecy, in just a couple of verses, addresses everything that apostates have leveled at us and succinctly reveals the solution that Jehovah proposes.

    The dilemma then facing apostates is this: While the Watchtower has not informed us about Jehovah's judgment upon the faithful slave and the organization as a whole, the Bible is quite clear that Jehovah's judgment begins with his own house first and that it is God's purpose to remove all faithless and arrogant ones from the midst of his people and reveal the whole truth. That revelation is to occur after the unfaithful are purged from our midsts. So, while the apostates' accusations are not without merit, just as the Devil who is the accuser of our brothers has legitimate grounds for his incriminations, the accusers fail to consider Jehovah's own judicial decisions and his ability and desire to show mercy to the faithful ones and initiate a true reformation and refining of his true ones.

    That leaves the enemies of Jehovahs people with the lingering, and I should hope somewhat unsettling rhetorical question: "Now if it (the judgment) starts first with us, what will the end be of those who are not obedient to the good news of God?"

    / You Know

    Edited by - You Know on 17 July 2002 9:13:41

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the Governing Body, the Watchtower Societys teachings, as well as individual Jehovahs Witnesses, then that somehow means that Jehovahs Witnesses have no connection with Jehovah God.

    The problem with your whole line of reasoning is that there is no evidence of any connection between the Watchtower organization and God to begin with, and plenty of evidence that there is no connection. It's not up to us "apostates" to prove that the Watchtower is not of God, it's up to you WT apologists to prove that it is. That evidence is utterly lacking.

    So offering examples of Moses, David etc. as being imperfect or sinful, yet still being approved of God is meaningless with relation to the JW's. Moses and David have impeccable credentials. They are spoken of in the Bible as being approved by God. The only thing the Bible testifies about the JW organization is that they are false prophets who will be rejected by the Lord at His coming.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    There is nothing, and I mean nothing, that disgusts me more than reading some person's thread who is practicing creed bigotry.

    Labelling people and treating them as "inferior" is wrong. May it be for race, sex, sexual orientation or creed reasons.

    Bobby, you are just like everyone else - human beings. There is nothing special about you or anyone else.

    Grow up, quit labelling people, quit treating people as inferior and quit practicing "hatred".

    hawk

  • You Know
    You Know

    Neon Madman

    The problem with your whole line of reasoning is that there is no evidence of any connection between the Watchtower organization and God to begin with, and plenty of evidence that there is no connection.

    Obviously apostate dubs at one time did believe that there was a solid foundation of our faith otherwise you wouldn't have spent those many years trying to convince others that you had the truth. Many of you were elders, ministerial servants, pioneers, and some even anointed. Where you that stupid? It is more reasonable to believe that you are now simply faithless, blind, and spiritually corrupt and have apostatized from Jehovah God. Ironically, one of the strongest evidences that we do indeed possess the true faith is the existence of apostates themselves. According to the prophecy in 2 Timothy the 3rd chapter, there are imposters who are like Jannes and Jambres who resisted Moses, "men completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith," whose "madness will be very plain to all." Even your screen name betrays you as a mere madman. LOL / You Know

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    More bigotry and labelling.

    hawk

  • SpiceItUp
    SpiceItUp

    It funnie..I always open one of You Know's posts with full intention of actually reading it. But then it opens and I realize that it is all long-winded and I only get through the first couple sentences.

    Alas...this one is the same.

    Oh well...maybe next time, but probably not.

  • dubla
    dubla

    yk-

    just when i thought your thread was boring enough to ignore, you surprise me with what may be your most faulty logic to date.

    Obviously apostate dubs at one time did believe that there was a solid foundation of our faith otherwise you wouldn't have spent those many years trying to convince others that you had the truth. Many of you were elders, ministerial servants, pioneers, and some even anointed. Where you that stupid?

    ex-amish men and women at one time believed there was a solid foundation for the amish faith. many of them very well may have held high positions in the amish religion, and even raised their children up to be amish. were they that stupid?

    ex-catholics at one time believed there was a solid foundation for the catholic faith. many of them very well may have held high positions in the catholic religion, preaching and teaching others of their faith. were they that stupid?

    i could continue on showing you how your logic applies to every religion there ever was, but i think you get the idea.

    as far as your question goes, for many of us "stupidity" had nothing to do with it. when you are raised in a religion, and taught from infancy that it is the "truth" and the only way to avoid certain death at armageddon, human tendancy is to believe it wholeheartedly, 100%, no matter how enormous of a lie it all is. maybe we just desperately wanted to believe it, sort of like your examples of the supposed fraudulent economy.....who knows.

    aa

    Edited by - dubla on 17 July 2002 10:6:54

  • You Know
    You Know

    Hackall says:

    Grow up, quit labelling people, quit treating people as inferior and quit practicing "hatred".

    "Apostate" is not a derogatory label. It is a perfectly appropriate term to use in this forum. If you don't like it, all I can say is----Too bad. / You Know

  • stocwach
    stocwach

    You Know said,

    Obviously apostate dubs at one time did believe that there was a solid foundation of our faith otherwise you wouldn't have spent those many years trying to convince others that you had the truth. Many of you were elders, ministerial servants, pioneers, and some even anointed. Where you that stupid?

    NeonMadman brings an excellent point to the table, AND THIS IS YOUR REBUTTAL? Let me guess-- your team lost every debate in school with you as the leader!

    Since this is your only reply, nevertheless it deserves a rebuttal, and the simple one would be for you to read any book on the effects of cult mind control and you would either a)retract the above comment if you are a rational person or b)denounce it as a work of Satan irrationally.

    You are truly a piece of work.

  • You Know
    You Know

    Sockwach says:

    NeonMadman brings an excellent point to the table, AND THIS IS YOUR REBUTTAL? Let me guess-- your team lost every debate in school with you as the leader!

    I am perfectly capable of using the Scriptures to defend my faith against any accusation apostates are able to muster, and have done so for years. Madman simply said he didn't believe it was the truth. So what? The opinion of an apostate Dub carries no weight with me. Why should it? / You Know

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