Will Bill Bowen Be Disfellowshipped Wednesday

by Kenneson 18 Replies latest jw friends

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  Farkel

  : If they had any sense they would just leave it alone,but they dont

  The society was successful in conning the average dub over their shameful Dfing of Ray Franz. But that was in 1981. They are so stupid and arrogant as to think they can do it again with Bill, Barbara and the Pandelos. But this is 2002 and we have the Internet. Because of that, even dumb dubs will eventually end up hearing the real facts about the child abuse problems the society has created. Even before any of us knew Bill Bowen, I announced on the old H20 that we finally had the "smoking gun" that would seriously damage the WTS. I was referring to the child abuse cover-up. Today I am more convinced than ever that due to the society's arrogant and idiotic handling of this problem, they are going to face a tremendous back-lash from the rank and file. The society's claim to authority is going to be seriously undermined and I suspect that even many loyal dubs will stop taking anything they say and anything they do seriously in the not-too-distant future. This will spell doom for them, at least as far as any future growth is concerned.

  William Penwell was quite correct in stating that the society is still living in the 19th century. Ironically, this makes them quite advanced relatively speaking, since some of their idiotic religious practices are still in the 5th century. B.C.!

  Farkel

  Edited by - Farkel on 20 July 2002 23:27:30
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  minimus

  what threat is the internet when you can't look at it? And even if JW's look at it, they can't talk about it, so they will practice a "secret sin" and keep it to themselves, resulting in another BIG story but with most Witnesses not getting involved. Everybody was saying that the U.N. story was going to really shake everybody up. The Calgary episode was going to be it, the blood issue and all it's foolishness.....This will affect some, a few, and that's all folks!!!
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  Farkel

  : This will affect some, a few, and that's all folks!!!

  You don't get it. The UN thing WAS big, but the average householder couldn't care less about the society's hypocrisy in sleeping with the great "whore." In fact, they would probably laugh about the whole thing as being inconsequential.

  Protecting tens of thousands of child-rapists and then severely punishing the rape victims is quite another thing, and this thing is now getting world-wide press. Everyone can relate to this issue, whereas only those who know dub issues could relate to the UN thing. Your average householder stands a far greater chance of knowing that Jehovah's Witnesses protect child-rapists than they would know that the society was a NGO.

  Your conclusion based upon your poor analogy is simply wrong. This issue will NOT go away. Recruiting of new members is going to be severely curtailed, and with the out-falling of existing dubs, the Watchtower religion is going to shrink. Noticeably.

  You also fail to take into consideration that this child-rape thing follows on the shirtails of decades of JW disappointment, the 1995 renouncing of "This Generation", the fall of the Soviet Empire and thus the fall of their "King of the North" doctrine and the fact that this world is simply getting much better, not much worse.

  Farkel

  Edited by - Farkel on 20 July 2002 23:56:14
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  minimus

  farkel, your post related mostly to "the rank and file". All the issues that have been raised such as the king of the north, the generation change,the fall of the Soviet empire, may have affected some of them but most of those that were troubled by these matters still stayed in the organization.The dumb dubs now have the 2002 internet and you think that's going to mightily affect them? You think there's going to be a tremendous backlash from the JW"s because this isn't 1980. Well the truth is, most JW's that I talk to have not felt this is a big issue.Many feel the apostates are trying to twist things as usual. I have talked to many people in the secular world about the JW pedophile thing, and guess what? Most people don't know or really don't care.Only people that are in tune with the child- rape issue are going to jump on a bandwagon..
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  Siddhashunyata

  Yes, Farkle has the right idea, its an evolving process not a" silver bullet" situation. The child abuse issue has given thrust to an evolving downward spiral. I don't believe any other issue could have done it . That issue makes certain that all the little WT "spiders" will be pursued relentlessly on THE INTERNET.
• 

  Farkel

  minimus,

  : dumb dubs now have the 2002 internet and you think that's going to mightily affect them? You think there's going to be a tremendous backlash from the JW"s because this isn't 1980. Well the truth is, most JW's that I talk to have not felt this is a big issue

  Your sampling of JWs is very small. Also, you are forgetting that the child-abuse coverup is going to continue to get covered in the press and on television/radio. This did not happen with the NGO issue, the 1995 "Generation" issue or even the Ray Franz issue, although Time Magazine did a piece on Ray.

  People naturally get incensed over child abuse. Probably most Dubs are no different. I never said the religion would go away, I said that this issue is THE biggest problem the society has faced since Joe Rutherford stole control of the society in 1918 and the magnitude of this problem is much bigger now than it was then.

  I think you are naive to think the damage will be minimized, but only time will tell. I will say that the society has been very resilient in covering up their lies and bullshit, but that also means the odds are against them prevailing over this one.

  Let's wait and see. I'll bet a cup of coffee on my position and give you two-to-one odds. Deal?

  Farkel
• 

  minimus

  Farkel,brother, I luv ya, and I hope YOU win the bet!!!!!!
• 

  teejay

  I have to agree with Farkel.

  I think there was already an underlining (and growing) lack of confidence in the governing body's direction. The new light concerning the "sheep and goats" and "generation" teachings produced an erosion of confidence that since then can be seen in the negative increases in the West (not to mention Japan) and general disinterest in field service, etc.

  True, Internet use *is* discouraged, even vilified, but that will not stop its use by a growing number of JWs, albeit in secret. Also true is that, for such ones fear of reprisals from their local storm troopers bent on beating everyone into strict conformity will keep them from freely discussing with others their increasing knowledge of the real truth but it won't stem the tide of knowledge they'll be gaining with each and every click of the mouse.

  The foundation of their faith in the WTS, that the gb is still being used by god, will continue to be undermined. Not only will it result in fewer increases but those that are now 'in' will lose what remaining zeal they have.

  Remember, in many circuits these days, the only baptismal candidates are the children of Witnesses, and it's children who are most likely to venture out onto the Net, either with friends at school, at friend's homes, or their own home. They are *least likely* to be shielded from the Real Truth. So, when the time comes that not even kids are being baptized...

  It's a matter of time.

  p.s. Can I get in on the bet? I'll give you four to one odds!
• 

  Seeker4

  Interesting discussion. I agree with Farkel - I don't forsee any one issue being "the" thing that causes a huge exodus of long-time Witnesses from the WTS. Minimus - you're discussing something that just isn't going to happen. This will be a cumulative collapse that will take decades, and for the reasons you've brought out.

  This is the scenario I foresee, and I feel it actually started in the mid-90's with the generation change:

  Growth will continue to slow and eventually reverse itself, which is true in about 75 first world countries over the past seven years or so.

  Leadership will deteriorate as the best minds in the organization continue to see through what is happening and often quietly step down and leave. The amazing stupidity in how the Society has handled the public relations on the pedophile issue is a case in point. These are not very bright moves. If JR Brown and Bob Pevy are the voices of choice to explain WTS issues, the Society is in serious trouble. These are guys seriously out of touch with the 'real world.'

  A high percentage of those who remain Witnesses will in reality take much of what they hear from the Governing Body with a grain of salt. Blind obedience is a thing of the past for many rank and file members. I see this all the time. Many of these people will stay Witnesses, because they cannot face life without the hope of the New System, resurrection, etc., and they have the social world of the Witnesses, which is very appealing. They'll stay, but they just won't believe everything they are told.

  The organization will collapse slowly - not overnight. I will be surprised if in 2102 there is still an active Jehovah's Witness religion. Why? They have left themselves very little room to make necessary changes. The generation change was a bold move, and created a huge uproar and many of us left because it was such an obvious attempt to cover their collective asses. And, I don't think they have anyone with the creativity, vision and individuality, who is in a leadership position, to guide the WTS into new waters. All those men and women have left, or been squelched or booted out. Those are not the qualities of a good "society man" who will be given responsibility. So they are in a stuck position that is becoming increasingly out-dated and unacceptable to many, but defended by the leadership..

  And finally, the Society makes a huge mistake in their thinking that God is guiding them, and that Jehovah will straighten out all these issues in His due time. I remember a CO telling me this when I tried talking with him about how the Society was handling sexual abuse and mental health issues in the early 80s. It's the same as watching a building collapsing around you, and putting off any needed maintenance until the invisible carpenter shows up to do it. So things just get worse, and you have no personal responsibility, because you're "waiting until the invisible carpenter fixes it." Well, the WTS's depending on Jehovah to handle these problems won't work because there is no Jehovah. Or if there is, he sure isn't fixing anything in the WTS.

  Just some thoughts. S4