Could man have free will if God cansee the future?

sleepy

Some witness theological beliefs are, man has free will, God can see the future.

I used to wonder how this could work.For if God could see you were going to do something then you must do it, otherwise god is wrong, so therefore you had no choice.

Take Judas for example.Jesus is believed to have known he would be betrayed by him.In fact it is suppossed to have been prophesied in Psalms that someone close to him would do so.

If God could see that Judas would kill Jesus then once this predicion was made Judas had no choice no free will to choose not to.So either god can't really see the furture and can just make predictions or man has no free will.If when God looks into the future this causes an event to happen , its gods fault if he see something bad happening , as if he didn't look it would not have been set in stone.

If it is predictions that God makes (not acktual knowledge of what will happen)then what are these based on?

Knowledge of the human brain and how it works?If so, then man actions are purly based on mechanisms within the brain that are so rigid that you with enought knowledge can know them thousands of years before.So if mans sins it not his fault , theres nothing he can do about it , he has no free will.So God is not just in punishing him.

Whichever way it does not work out as fair or logical that a God could see the future and for man to have free will.

Xena

Always wondered about this too sleepy....if there is prophecy then how can you have free will?

Judas is a great example of this...so is Cyrus the Great. If you are fortold BY NAME to do something, would you have the free will to change it? If you change it then God was wrong...if you can't or don't....then no free will...

lol christian paradox huh?

Satanus

The way i used to see it was that god was outside of time and space. So, to him, all of time and everything within it from when time started to when it may finish, was like a parade. He was an observer at the side of the parade. At that position, he was able to move to any part of the parade, forwards or backwards, to observe what was happening at any point in time. Time and it's contents would open for him to see without interferring, unless he chose to do so. This theory leaves free will intact, except where god chose to interfere. That was my opinion some years ago.

SS

Vivamus

I never could see the logic of it myself. God seeing into the future, knowing what we would do, that would coincide more with the Calvinistic belief of predestination.

Btw, what kind of free will is that anyway? Obey me and yee shall live. Disobey me and yee shall perish and suffer beyond comprehension. That's not giving men free will! That's giving them a threat.

Viv.

pomegranate

1 John 3:20
For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

I believe if there is a God, and it's the God of the Bible, and the Bible's true, and He does know everything, then there is no free will...

I believe it's more like free time.

[edited for typo]

Edited by - pomegranate on 21 July 2002 7:54:23

biblexaminer

Ssatan:

"The way i used to see it was that god was outside of time and space"

Excellent conclusion. I came to this same conclusion years ago and only recently had the idea validated by a scientist/theologian who arrived at this from another starting point.

Good work! Carry on....

gumby

If God could see that Judas would kill Jesus then once this predicion was made Judas had no choice no free will to choose not to.

If a African hunting guide knew of a spot where unwary hunters died in quicksand EVERTIME they crossed a certain spot......he could safely tell the group with him.....'you will die too, if you try to cross here'.

The guide KNOWS they will die if they cross......but they have free choice to cross.

The real question is.....If God knew of the mess we would end up in....why did he start? The guide in the story at least would tell all in the group what happened to the FIRST TWO that crossed the quiksand.....and give the others a fair shot at not choosing the other two's course.

Edited by - Gumby on 21 July 2002 9:30:50

pomegranate

>>but they have free choice to cross<<

I believe God already knows all the choices that will be made.

JanH

SS,

At that position, he was able to move to any part of the parade, forwards or backwards, to observe what was happening at any point in time. Time and it's contents would open for him to see without interferring, unless he chose to do so. This theory leaves free will intact, except where god chose to interfere.

What explanatory framework you choose is actually irrelevant. If it is just possible to know the future in detail, then there is no such thing as free will. Then every event from the origin of the universe until the end of time is already decided, and nothing we do can change anything. We would all just be puppets on a string playing out God's eternal script for his amusement.

It is totally irrelevant whether God chooses to know something in advance or not. If it is just possible, then the future is already set.

I have heard the "God outside of time" argument many times, and it is actually a totally absurd idea. Thinking, planning, doing all requires time. And how can God move in time if he is outside it? It is just a sophistic game with words, having no real meaning whatsoever.

- Jan

willy_think

I believe God can't "see the future" as in looking from this time into another time, for God in neither in this time nor any other time. God can "remember" what you did yesterday but he didn't interfere, he can remember what you will do tomorrow and still not interfere. God's "Seeing" is not God causing us to dance like puppets on a string.

If God knew of the mess we would end up in....why did he start?

When I taught my daughter to ride a bike I know she would fall but she had no idea I would let anything so horrible so very scary and potentially dangerous as falling off her bike happen to her. Well, I did. you see the fear and pain were not the end she believed they were, only one small part of her learning to be what she was not before.

Jan,
I just saw your post, I understand you think my God is a fantasy so All words about him are games we play but still I'll ask:
Can you tell me just what you think "thinking" "planning" and "doing" are?
I am interested in your idea's as to what "moving" would consist of to my God? (who is without matter and location).

Edited by - willy_think on 21 July 2002 10:43:43

Could man have free will if God cansee the future?

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