Could man have free will if God cansee the future?

by sleepy 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  pomegranate

  >>Could not your god have killed him long ago?<<

  My belief:

  No, God could not have killed Satan immediately. If God is just, how could he take the life of Satan if Satan hadn't taken a life?

  {Added on edit: Don't confuse Adam and Eve's death as Satan killing them. They died by their OWN HANDS (reached out). Adam and Eve committed suicide.}

  After all, isn't the Law of God an eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life?? How could God take the life of one who hadn't taken a life? If He did, He would be the supreme example of injustice. Isn't the LAW MAKER as bound to the LAW as those who the LAW was bound upon? I say YES.

  In order for God to exterminate Satan, Satan had to be guilty of taking a life EQUAL TO that which he was claiming to be. Satan claimed to be god. OK, a false god, but a god just the same.

  Up to the plate comes Jesus Christ, surrenders being God, becomes a being (man) that can be killed, is killed by Satan and his corruption.

  Now, Satan can be exterminated, because at the point of Jesus death, he was guilty of killing one who was FORMERLY God in heaven before becoming a man. I believe the time now is waiting for all the conditions of corruption to become truly ripe for the reaping.

  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

  For every action - Satan (false god), a creation, GOING UP to claim god.

  There is an equal and opposite reaction - Jesus (true God), uncreated, GOING DOWN to claim death.

  The physical world is a likeness of the spiritual reality.

  DISCLAIMER: My belief, not being forced or coerced or convinced as anyone else's.

  (edited for typo and addition)

  Edited by - pomegranate on 21 July 2002 14:33:44
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  JanH

  pomegranate,

  Up to the plate comes Jesus Christ, surrenders being God, becomes a being (man) that can be killed, is killed by Satan and his corruption.

  Since you said that Adam & Eve in effect committed suicide, can't the same be said about Jesus, if we are to believe the Gospel accounts of his death?

  - Jan
• 

  pomegranate

  My belief:

  Yes. Chirst committed suicide on the cross. Father LET him commit suicide on the cross.

  I also believe Jesus in a sense willingly first "died" in heaven as God too. In order for Christ to become a man on earth, he had to die as God in heaven.

  Isn't it suicide to save a girl crossing the train tracks by pushing her off, yet you yourself get hit by the train and die?

  All suicide is not bad, I believe.

  DISCLAIMER: My belief, not being forced or coerced or convinced as anyone else's.
• 

  JanH

  Yes. Chirst committed suicide on the cross. Father LET him commit suicide on the cross.

  How then can Satan be guilty in his murder? He was, as you say, not guilty in the deaths of Adam & Eve.

  - Jan
• 

  Valis

  OK, so if he couldn't kill him, then why not make him go bug some other planet, or just restrict his access to us humans? Is that beyond his own power? It sounds like Frankenstien's monster to me. The creator of the problem doesn't kill his creation till it kills someone he loves dearly, regardless what happens to all the innocent bystanders in the mean time. Doesn't sound like your god has his house in order to me. In fact the whole tale , it smacks of human imperfection and a bad attempt at science fiction.

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer

  Edited by - Valis on 21 July 2002 14:52:56
• 

  pomegranate

  >>How then can Satan be guilty in his murder? He was, as you say, not guilty in the deaths of Adam & Eve.<<

  My belief:

  The false god Satan's corrupt children (offspring of Adam and Eve which he created by the corrupting LEAVEN called lie), killed the true God Father's uncorrupt child (which He created).

  Obviously then, a god (false or otherwise) is thus responsible for ALL that he creates is he not? As a man is responsible for his creation from the loins, so the god Satan is responsible for his creation of his "lips."

  Justice now legally permits the God of LIFE to impose death, on the god who has the power of death.

  Heb 2:14-15
  14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil-
  
  (Recollect Jesus talking to the Jews..."you are from your father the Devil")

  ---------

  Valis,

  Science fiction to you, non fiction to me. Don't forget my disclaimer OK?

  DISCLAIMER: My belief, not being forced or coerced or convinced as anyone else's. Including you Valis.

  Edited by - pomegranate on 21 July 2002 15:15:38
• 

  Valis

  pom I didn't forget and I'm not jumping on you...you didn't answer my question though, nor have you satisfied me that your version depicts anything other than a superior being playing a game w/an inferior opponent, he knows he's gonna beat anyway. Doesn't sound like my kind of game. Where is the challenge in that? Even with all the variants in his game like free will, if the outcome is known, because the playbook/bible says so, it still results in self gratification for your god, not the benefit of every living human on the planet.. Like I said earlier..an excercise in futility on his part, and for me a glaring example of why the bible does not represent who or what god might be.

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
• 

  Bleep

  Valis says, "Seems to me that your god got into a pissing contest with an inferior creature, or so it would seem Satan was inferior, but maybe not."

  Me - Do not forget my Jehovah God is Love, Wisdom, Justice and Power.
  Since Jehovah (my God and creator of all living things) is justice, he would let mortal man try to rule. Look what mankind has done so far. Three world wars, crime, death, AIDS and other diseases, and the list goes on and on.

  pomegranate says, "How then can Satan be guilty in his murder? He was, as you say, not guilty in the deaths of Adam & Eve."

  Me - Satan said in the Bible that in the time Eve at of the fruit they would become like God knowing good and bad. He forgot to tell them that it would be disobeying Jehovah. He lied and become the father of the lie.

  Valis says, "Even with all the variants in his game like free will, if the outcome is known, because the playbook/bible says so, it still results in self gratification for your god, not the benefit of every living human on the planet.."

  Me - Justice is not a game and never will be. The rules of this game comes from Jehovah since he created all things. It does benefit mankind since the question of who has the right to rule will never happen again.

  Valis says, "Like I said earlier..an excercise in futility on his part, and for me a glaring example of why the bible does not represent who or what god might be."

  Me - God inspired the Bible. Why would Jehovah want no one to come to a knowledge of the author of the Bible and at least a basic understanding about the author.

  Valis says, "The creator of the problem doesn't kill his creation till it kills someone he loves dearly, regardless what happens to all the innocent bystanders in the mean time."

  Me - Jehovah never created a problem. He knows what mankind needs and mankind wanted the desires of the flesh. Jehovah also keeps an accurate record of the ones he loves dearly. That way the ones who are meek will reap the benefits from being good in his eyes.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>pom I didn't forget and I'm not jumping on you...<<

  Well then, I'm not sure how I was to take this:

  Doesn't sound like your god has his house in order to me. In fact the whole tale , it smacks of human imperfection and a bad attempt at science fiction.

  Was my sense wrong?

  >>you didn't answer my question though,<<

  This:

  >>then why not make him go bug some other planet,<<

  My belief:

  Because I believe the Satanic rebellion was before Genesis 1:1, there were no other planets. Satan wanted to be god before the physical creation was started. I beleive the physical creation was created as the tool to end the spirtual GAME as you like to call it. Well, hunting is a game right? That game means life or death. So your term GAME doesn't minimize (at least to me) the seriousness of events in heaven. In reality, "game" is in fact what it is. The game of life and death. With two gods butting heads.

  A true God and a false god.

  >> nor have you satisfied me that your version depicts anything other than a superior being playing a game w/an inferior opponent, he knows he's gonna beat anyway.<<

  I have no problem looking at it this way, except I don't believe there is PLAYING in this game. IT IS WORK. It has been ALL WORK since the beginning. Have you read Genesis. God was WORKING at the game in the beginning.

  My belief:

  You know, the word WORK is an action used when there is a problem. When there is a problem, you WORK at it, ie not enough money, somethings broken, something happened, an a$$hole is screwing up heaven. When you have a problem, do you PLAY at it? No you WORK. WORK is done for PROBLEMS. All that WORK that God was doing in the beginning is EVIDENCE of a problem. That problem God was working on was SATAN. The thing is, the inferior opponent (the problem that needed work) thought he really could win.

  >> Doesn't sound like my kind of game.<<

  I believe we're all in it whether we like it or not.

  >>Where is the challenge in that?<<

  I believe there is no challenge for us. We've been FORCED into a position of inherited corruption with NO CHOICE. Not so bad I believe once I understood that I have no choice. It's God's choice alone. He decides. He will win. Satan NEVER believed that. So. Time will tell. So time was created for this challenge. Time will WORK.
  
  >>Even with all the variants in his game like free will,<<

  I don't believe in freewill, I only believe there is God's will. The rest is free time.

  >>if the outcome is known, <<

  of which I beleive it is ALL known from the beginning of Satan's first fart.

  >>because the playbook/bible says so,<<

  I believe you don't believe that.

  >>it still results in self gratification for your god,<<

  That's all that counts to me...after all, it's why I'm alive. Why not let Dad be GLORIFIED UP TO HIS...well you know.

  >>not the benefit of every living human on the planet..<<

  I believe it will be to the gratification of all He chooses to take part in it.

  >> Like I said earlier..an excercise in futility on his part, and for me a glaring example of why the bible does not represent who or what god might be<<

  I appreciate your opinion.

  DISCLAIMER: My belief, not being forced or coerced or convinced as anyone else's.
• 

  pomegranate

  Bleep says:

  pomegranate says, "How then can Satan be guilty in his murder? He was, as you say, not guilty in the deaths of Adam & Eve."

  I never said that. Reread please.