Is God that clever?

by sleepy 16 Replies latest jw friends

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  Nemesis

  Sleepy:

  "God creates man. So in someway man is designed by God. Now for some reason which is either a natural law which god cannot break, an error on his part or done on purpose, man is able to become imperfect. So either God could not foresee this or he carried on despite knowing what would happen if man turned imperfect."

  What you are missing is free will. God could have made us like plants, set by laws to form, function and grow, and then die; he has already done that with plants. He could have made us like animals, set by laws, instincts, and limited intellect and limited freedom from the overlying instinct; and he has already done that with animals.

  He made us with fleshly bodies and minds that were capable of higher being, intellect, spirituality and true free will to choose between good and bad. The freedom to choose bad is the whole point of free will, without that we would not be free. It doesn't matter if most choose bad, as that is their privilege to decide that. If you wish to live like an animal and disregard spirituality and function solely on instincts, then that is your choice, but don't expect him to pick up the pieces, or bring you back when you return to the dust that you came from. If you wish to live like an animal then you should also expect the same destiny as an animal, eternal non-existence.

  He also doesn't expect us to be perfect, and I'm sure he feels there is enough in the world and scriptures to prove his existence. Others may disagree and want a personal visitation, but he obviously sees there is enough in the world to get to know him and live a good life, whether you choose to open up to that or not is another aspect of free will. I'm sure he wants people to know him and Jesus because they want to, not because of selfish reasons or because they have had it all put on a plate in front of them and need little effort, or sincere faith to know him.

  I find it amusing that humans screw up the world, and then expect God to jump to attention and make it all good so they can then screw it up all over again, why the heck should he? We are all damn lucky to even exist! Any one of us could die tomorrow, we should all count our blessings, and stop expecting others to wave a magic wand and make our lives ideal. Shit happens, and nearly all of it is from humans, not God. He has his timetable, and will sort reality out when he wishes, until then he makes it very clear that we are all capable of living a good life, and that is all he's asking, he owes us nothing but we owe him everything, especially if we somehow think he should give us immortality and a wonderful life all for nothing!

  Nemesis
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  Guest 77

  Amen, Nemesis. Remember who said, 'Curse God and die?'

  Guest 77
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  sleepy

  Nemisis "What you are missing is free will"

  But as imperfect humans , we don't have free will.The idea is that we are borns sinner , we can't help sinning.If we can't help it we have no choice in the matter.

  "I find it amusing that humans screw up the world, and then expect God to jump to attention and make it all good so they can then screw it up all over again, why the heck should he?"

  But according to the bible the world is screwed up because 1.Man is imperfect, so for example people have the desire to do bad to each other 2 .Satan and his demons rule it.
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  plmkrzy

  we can't help sinning.If we can't help it we have no choice in the matter.

  Thats true to a degree.

  However we do have a choice to either try or not to try.

  Otherwise why even bother to punish those who commit heinous crimes such as molestation of children? That is if they have no choice in what they do.
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  SpiceItUp

  If the first man was perfect then he could not have made the first mistake even with free will. Since the word perfect is defined as:
  1 a : being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS

  If Adam had no flaws or defects then that would mean he would be in capable of making mistakes---therefore he wold not have sinned. And it would have been his own free will NOT to sin.

  IMO----the way you are argueing this is in contradiction to itself. You cannot be prefect and also have free-will. But yet that apears to be what Adam had. If he was perfect even with free will then he would have known better than to sin in the first place....blah blah blah...circular thinking----drives me nuts.

  This is one of the main reasons I don't give the bible any authority much less "god".
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  Nemesis

  Sleepy:

  "But as imperfect humans, we don't have free will. The idea is that we are born sinners, we can't help sinning. If we can't help it we have no choice in the matter."

  Sleepy, you forget that God does not in any way require us to be perfect; he knows well that is impossible. All he asks of us is to try our best, that is all we can do. Jesus' sacrifice covers all other sins. We can only do the best we can and no more, that is all he asks, not perfection.

  SpiceItUp:

  "If the first man was perfect then he could not have made the first mistake even with free will. Since the word perfect is defined as:

  1 a: being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS

  If Adam had no flaws or defects then that would mean he would be in capable of making mistakes---therefore he wold not have sinned. . ."

  Perfection is merely achieving the goal of the designer without flaws. Part of man's design was to have free will to become corrupt, which is why we are corruptible, not incorruptible, that was part of our design as humans. Adam didn't make a "mistake", he chose to sin, being a perfect being of free will would not remove his power and natural ability to choose bad if he desired it. The choosing was part of his design, so would not contradict his perfection. God could make a tree, and call it perfect (it met its design brief), but you may say: "Look, the trunk is a big wonky there, and those leaves are being eaten by bugs, etc." But what you forget is that is part of the design brief that is the nature of a tree! We are corruptible by nature, God does promise if we live good lives he will reward us in the future with incorruptibility and we will be like him, unable to sin, or become bad. But until then, we have to put up with this reality and get on with life, enjoy it, and try and see the bad things as lessons, and grow from them. No amount of blaming God will remove life's tests, and troubles, so we better get on and make the most if it before we cast off this mortal coil.

  Nemesis
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  FiveShadows

  Well said Kenneson ~FS