proof for xander and Jan H.

by RWC 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  RWC

  The original "Will religion be banned " thread has moved to page 16 so I thought I would start a new one here.

  Both Xander and Jan H. asked for proof that the Gospel wruters were martyred. Here is the proof of that plus the proof that other persons identified as disciples were martyred as well:

  Stephen - stoned to death

  James the son of Zebedee - beheaded

  Philip - crucified in A.D. 54

  Matthew- killed in Ethopia in A.D. 60

  Andrew- crucified

  Mark - dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria

  Peter - crucified

  Luke - Hanged from an olive tree

  Thomas - thrust with a spear

  John - exciled to the Isle of Patomos ( he was sent to prison for his faith, but did not die there)

  James - step brother of Jesus who wrote one of the letters - stoned to death

  This information comes from Foxes Book of Martyrs first published in the 1500s. It is the recognized history text on the churches early martyrs.

  With this in mind, my premise stays the same- the Gospel writers and the other disciples who were eyewitnesses to the life, death and ressurrection of Jesus died for what they witnessed and what they knew to be true.

  Xander- You asked me if I beleive that Kroesch and the founder of Heaven's Gate truly believed what they claimed to believe. Frankly neither I or you can know what these folks truly believed, however, your question misses my point. The Gospel writers and the early disciples did not die for what they simply believed to be the truth, they were eyewitnesses to the events and therefore knew them to have occurred. They did not believe something to be true, they knew it. To say that they made it all up (which it what you are claiming) than you have to say that these men went to their death for what they knew to be a lie (saying they witnessed something that never happened or even followed a man that never lived according to some) when they were given the opportunity to recant. What proof do you have to support your proposition?
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  JanH

  RWC,

  Both Xander and Jan H. asked for proof that the Gospel wruters were martyred. Here is the proof of that plus the proof that other persons identified as disciples were martyred as well:

  What part of the word "proof" do you have problems with? Why do you think posting a list of alleged martyrdoms proves anything?

  And which of these wrote any gospels and how do you know?

  - Jan
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  Xander

  I think you'll recall I asked for SECULAR sources.

  You know, people WITHOUT an agenda to lie through their teeth to gain followers?

  S

  E

  C

  U

  L

  A

  R

  As in, 'NOT related to the church'
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  RWC

  Before you dismiss Foxes Book of Martyrs, you might want to investigate it a little. It is based upon secular sources such as documents from the Roman historians. It has been proven over the last seven hundred years to be a reliable history text.

  Jan. H.- Matthew wrote a gospel and was martyred, Luke wrote a gospel and Acts and was martyred, John wrote a gospel and was imprisoned, and Mark wrote a gospel and was martyred. All four of the Gospel writers suffered for their beliefs, just as the other disciples who did not write gospels but who died for their faith and their preaching.

  There is universal agreement on the authors of the Gospels as can be easily shown. If you want that proof I would be happy to show it to you.

  What part of proof don't you understand? Simply saying that you want more does not show anything. What proof do you have that the historians are incorrect and that these people were not martyred or did not write the Gospels as history shows?

  Present that proof and we can have a discussion.

  God Bless
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  Satanus

  RWC

  Good attempt at shifting the burden of proof from youself to your challengers.

  SS
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  Xander

  RWC:

  I believe you missed the point of my comment.

  I don't deny that later, as the church was beginning to gain momentum, persecution happened and 'christians' were executed. That's all well and good.

  The problem is that their is no proof outside of christianity that the GOSPEL WRITERS did, in fact, DIE FOR THEIR WRITINGS.

  In any case, 'Foxes Book of Martyrs' is perhaps one of the worst cases to use. It is written from a protestant point of view (already christian), telling tales of how terrible the catholic false religion is oppressing 'true christians'.

  It does seem to detail the early apostles, but only so far as they are associated with the 'correct understanding of christ' that the protestant churches have.

  And, where, pray tell, does he GET these details of apostolic persecution? Why, from the Catholic church, of course!

  IOW, The author has an obvious agenda and is writing a book for those with obvious agendas pulling from sources with an obvious agenda (at least, in the case of the apostles).
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  Bleep

  If you read the Bible it does say that the wild beast will eat the harlet and then go after Jehovah's people. Hope that clears this whole topic up about Religion being banned.
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  hillary_step

  Hi RCW,

  I think that what Jan and the others mean by 'proof' is that in order for the information that you have given to be underpinned by evidence it normally needs at least two pieces of secular evidence to prove your statements. Offering internal evidence cannot be used as proof, as it rather like making the statement that God exists and wrote the Bible and offering texts from the Bible as proof. It needs external evidence and not external opinion to prove your points.

  Now, I am not decrying the Bible or its value, so please let us not get into an believer / non-believer grapple. What is being said is that eventually without hard secular evidence from a number of sources being offered, then the fall-back position will always be to the standard of faith. This is of course fair enough if the believer accepts that he cannot prove his views, but that he still has faith that they are correct.

  For example, I believe in God, though I cannot prove it and certainly would not try to as I would fail, but I have faith that something greater than the measure of all we know so far in our development, and something that is progressive in movement exists. I have faith that this is so, though I cannot back up my view with evidence that is sustainable in an argument with science and logic. So I am left with my faith, an individual perception that I am prepared to live with, without evidence. I have no problem with this, as long as I am honest in accepting the limitations of my faith.

  Best regards and thank you for an interesting thread - HS

  PS -

  If you read the Bible it does say that the wild beast will eat the harlet and then go after Jehovah's people. Hope that clears this whole topic up about Religion being banned.

  Bleep, please do not try to hijack threads like this as many people learn from them. If you feel that the subject being discussed is beyond your experience or abilities to handle, try to find a thread more suited to you.

  Many thanks - HS

  Edited by - hillary_step on 22 July 2002 14:51:43

  Edited by - hillary_step on 22 July 2002 15:25:21
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  JanH

  RWC,

  Before you dismiss Foxes Book of Martyrs, you might want to investigate it a little. It is based upon secular sources such as documents from the Roman historians. It has been proven over the last seven hundred years to be a reliable history text.

  My oh my. You don't know much.

  I have studied history of religions for many years, specializing in Christianity, so I have a good knowledge of the sources to the history of Christianity.

  Foxe's book is interesting for historians wanting to know about the reformation and the religious life in the 16th century. It has no value whatsoever as a history of the first centuries, as Foxe based his history on popular legends and tales and added a bit of fiction for dramatic effect. He simply had no source critical approach, and no access to sources we don't have (quite the contrary).

  Jan. H.- Matthew wrote a gospel and was martyred, Luke wrote a gospel and Acts and was martyred, John wrote a gospel and was imprisoned, and Mark wrote a gospel and was martyred. All four of the Gospel writers suffered for their beliefs, just as the other disciples who did not write gospels but who died for their faith and their preaching.

  Even the Bible itself does not make any attempt to name the gospel authors. It is a later tradition to claim that they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. No internal evidence even suggests that any of the gospel authors were eye witnesses to the events (as e.g. Matthew or John would have been). There is no credible evidence whatsoever that any of the authors were martyred.

  A few early Christians were killed, like James the brother of Jesus (but he wrote nothing that we have today) and Paul.

  There is universal agreement on the authors of the Gospels as can be easily shown. If you want that proof I would be happy to show it to you.

  If you had a smattering of knowledge about historians, you'd know that this is nonsense. Only conservative religious "scholars" do not accept that the the NT books are pseudoanonymous (Paul's genuine letters excepted)..

  But, by all means, come forth with the evidence you claim to have. So far, you have only made it clear you don't even understand what "evidence" and "proof" means.

  What part of proof don't you understand? Simply saying that you want more does not show anything. What proof do you have that the historians are incorrect and that these people were not martyred or did not write the Gospels as history shows?

  What do you know about historians? I am actually an historian, and I have no desire to prove myself wrong.

  You can read in any textbook on early Christianity what the actual sources are, and there is no evidence whatsoever any gospel author was ever martyred. All we have are dubious late traditions and legends that have very little merit.

  Your attemt to shift the burden of evidence is pathetic. You made a claim that the synoptic authors were martyred. I said there is no evidence whatsoever for this claim. So you not I, have the burden of evidence.

  Since we have no knowledge of who really wrote the gospels, we can't know whether they were martyred or not. What we do know, is that none of them even assert they were eye witnesses to Jesus.

  - Jan

  Edited by - JanH on 22 July 2002 15:24:25
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  RWC

  Xander,

  You have made the statement that Foxe had an agenda and therefore I assume that you think he cannot be believed. However, what proof do you have that his text has been shown to be historically inaccurate? On the contrary, it has stood the test of time. Even more importantly, it is recognized even by the Catholic church as being accurate. If he was writing it to condem the Catholic Church, why would they endorse it?

  As I stated before, Foxe mentions in his book that he is relying on texts from Roman historians. Do you have any proof that he is not telling the truth?