How Far We've Come (page 2)

proplog2

Outnfree:

Of course neither of us have hard facts on the impact of this specific issue. However, please realize that we are talking about a Relgion. Religions seem to be able to handle the most brutal challenges. Remember the Reformation? The Catholic Church still exists.

The Mormons have survived numerous attacks and schisms. The Watchtower has had serious setbacks - The Moyle crisis. Many failed prophetic dates. Don't forget that the Big Dogs were locked up back in 1918. Rank & File members went to prison over the draft. They are willing to die over the blood issue. And you think Bill Bowen or a steady stream of Bill Bowens is going to bring down JW's?

I also take issue with you over the idea that you can hurt them in the wallet. I've been a JW for over 50 years. I know (knew) some of the GB personally along with many 2nd tier and they aren't in this for the money. They've had good times and they've had very lean times.

A lot of people here are so disconnected from the reality of what Jehovah's Witnesses are about that they delude themselves into having more impact then they really do.

If JW's are going to dissolve it will be for the simple reason that the end fails to come. They are built on the premise that the end is near. This idea will no longer sustain another generation of JW's. Without an immanent "armageddon" there is no reason to be a Jehovah's Witness.

outnfree

Prop,

I don't think that these issues are going to "take the JWs down." In fact, I don't believe I actually said that in my post. I think the JWs will continue to exist for a while, and as you do, think that the demise will finally be the disbelief anymore that "Armageddon will be here REAL SOON."

I DO think that the pressure brought to bear can, in effect, force the WT to change its policies and to keep becoming ever more mainstream, rather than the "'established sect' ... hostile to society in general" as Penton's Apocalypse Delayed puts it in the Introduction. Jehovah's Witnesses of the future will be a different breed, indeed, most new recruits never knowing what went on before. Much like I didn't know how "cannibalistic" organ transplants where, how aluminum was responsible for myriad ailments, even how Pastor Russell rued "organization" -- as the Society has evolved ever more self-protectively over the years.

This self-protection is what will motivate them to do things such as:

1/ resigning hurriedly from the UN, once their harlotry [their terminology] was exposed

2/ stupidly disfellowshipping whistle-blowers on the pedophile policy front

3/ dropping entire chapters concerning blood and anointing by holy spirit (isn't it amazing how holy spirit is now disappearing from the mix lately?)

Would you not agree that the double-speak in Romania, for example, was motivated by self-protection and self-preservation? If the WT cannot be free to make new converts, how will it survive? If the WT cannot retain its tax-exempt status in many lands, how will it maintain its holdings?

Thus, courageous people like Lee Elder, Sam Beli, Bill Bowen, the Andersons and the Pandellos, the nameless and faceless (to us) protestors in Eastern Europe and other lands who recognize the Borganization for what it is: literally murderous -- physically,emotionally, and spiritually -- in its policies and convoluted doctrines.

And the more the average Joe Witness is exposed to the seamy underbelly of 'God's one true organization', the less and less deniability there will be in his mind that something is wrong in his 'spiritual paradise.' And the more the average "householder" is exposed to the seamy underbelly of Watchtower practices, the less of a convert pool will be available. More will leave, fewer will enter. For me, that's enough.

For me, that's progress. That's "How Far We've Come."

out

gumby

Proplog: 'If JW's are going to dissolve it will be for the simple reason that the end fails to come. They are built on the premise that the end is near. This idea will no longer sustain another generation of JW's. Without an immanent "armageddon" there is no reason to be a Jehovah's Witness.

How do you figure? How many hung on at the 1925 failure? Did they disolve because armaggedon didn't come? Armaggeon has been "just around the corner" since the group began and still the dubs remain.

Most dubs nowdays have been in less than 10 years.All the past bullshit from the borg is irrelevant or not known to the modern day dub.Other christian groups have been expecting the messiah in THEIR day also.....he hasn't come......and they continue to keep truckin. It may cause some old timers to drop out but I do not believe this will be the downfall of the borg......no way!

Edited by - Gumby on 27 July 2002 8:37:36

OUTLAW

Hey metatron,good post.Lets not forget the WBTS involment with the military war machine.Their 50% ownership of a company that makes parts for bombs,and now has made a deal with the US Navy for un-maned remote planes.They will be making the engines to fly the planes...OUTLAW

Edited by - OUTLAW on 27 July 2002 12:16:1

proplog2

Gumby:

Humans are creatures with a sense of time. This whole scenario played out in the first century. They expected Christ to come "soon". They gave up by the middle of the first century. By that date there wasn't anyone around who personally knew anyone who personally knew Jesus and the apostles. Time detached the Church from its moorings. At that point rituals and dogma became the foundation of the Church.

The same has happened to JW's. Rituals and dogma have replaced Russells original vision. Most congregations don't have anyone that partakes at the memorial. The 80 questions the elders discuss with baptismal candidates is their catechism. Assemblies have been reduced from spectacular marathons to weekend events. Teaching ability is no longer required to be an Elder. They don't have the guts to set another date for armageddon. Without a date there is no reason to belong to a religion that requires such a huge investment of its members time.

gumby

Proplog:

Without a date there is no reason to belong to a religion that requires such a huge investment of its members time.

Other religions have NO DATES for the end, and still they multiply. Don't you think other religions require huge investments of their members time also? I used to attend baptist churches and believe me.....they have something going on ALL the time. The difference is....as you say......the penalties for not participating are LESS severe.

I think many will slow down as they have been.....but....I feel the end of the dubs will not come about because of NO ARMAGGEDON. Sites like these are causing more of a backing off than no armaggedon.

Room 215

Hi all,

I agree with proplog. While the internet and its capacity for disclosure has made life considerably more diffiucult for the Borg, their greatest enemy is the insidious, inexorable ticking of the clock. What are they gonna do about 2014, which looms uncomfortably on the horizon?

Still, there's no denyng that the internet-- and this free man's forum -- has come a long, long way. But it's their words, thrown back in their faces, not ours here, that will deal the lethal blow.

drahcir yarrum

I don't care if the WTS flourishes or fails. It's enough for me to be out of it. There will always be a vast majority of JW's who will chalk up any exposure of Witnerss errors and lies as an attempt by Satan to attack them. It emboldens them with their 'great tribulation" bullshit. I'm not suggesting that anyone stop pointing out just how wrong and hypocritical the WTS is and has been. It may help more people get the hell out. But, since I'm out and have been out for almost twenty years, life is wonderful.

gumby

D.Y.

don't care if the WTS flourishes or fails.

I can understand that....I get that way too sometimes. However....for those of us with a lot of family or friends we have lost.....the yearning remains for the Borg to fall.

Many see it as a mental entrapment for thousands, and they wish to see the Borg crash.

How Far We've Come

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