by JT 40 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
And of course, it is once again that the child gets left out because of the moral aspects of the crime. How any self respecting elder could look himself in the mirror and continue to support the current policy is a real eye-opener as to just how far people will go to keep their status.
I have to believe that most elders are simply ignorant of the issues and if they knew the whole story about child abuse, could not remain. Maybe I'm wrong....I don't know.
Funny (not) scenarios you painted there, JT. What a contrast!
Blondie - excellent distinctions about doctors/dentists v. elders and felonies.
SilentLambs sent around just today an article from The New York Times on this very subject. I'll post it below. /Grits
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Above Expectation: A Child as Witness
By TAMAR LEWIN
THOSE who doubt that children can be reliable witnesses may be forced to rethink that idea, given the sharp eye of young Sarah Ahn.
Sarah, the Santa Ana, Calif., 5-year-old who was playing "Clue" with Samantha Runnion on July 15, gave police a clear-eyed description of how a man had asked for help finding his dog, grabbed a screaming Samantha and abducted her. She described his thin mustache, his accent, his age, his green car, with the chrome wheels and the "H" on the trunk and she guided a sketch artist to produce a "wanted" picture that bore an uncanny resemblance to Alejandro Avila, who has been arrested and charged with Samantha's murder.
"We responded to the call in four minutes, so she was giving that description immediately after it happened," said Jim Amormino, the spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff-Coroner Department. "We were definitely aware that it was a 5-year-old witness, but she was right in every particular, from the mustache to the age range."
Her identification would have been impressive from any witness, but it was all the more stunning from a kindergarten child.
"I found it amazing how accurate she was," said Jane Spinak, a Columbia law professor who specializes in children's rights. "But on some level it makes sense that she would remember those details. A child who's interested in colors or cars might notice that the car was green better than an adult. There's always pendulum swings on this issue of how much we believe children. But children can produce reliable accounts, especially when they're interviewed very soon after, by someone who's skilled enough to ask what they know without leading them, and when there's no issue of trying to keep a secret."
The reliability of child witnesses has been a vexing legal issue for centuries: early canon law prohibited children from testifying till puberty, and as English common law developed the age limit was reduced to 7 years old. In the Salem witch trials of 1692, most of the accusers were young girls.
Most recently and notoriously the credibility of child witnesses came into question in dozens of day care sexual-abuse cases nationwide in the 1980's, with children giving elaborate accounts of bizarre sexual abuse and satanic rituals by their day care providers. In 1984, seven people were charged with abusing children at the McMartin preschool outside Los Angeles. None were convicted, but some spent years in jail before a judge dismissed charges that more than 300 children were photographed naked in catacombs under the school.
In another prominent case, in 1988, Margaret Kelly Michaels was convicted of more than 100 counts of sexual abuse at the Wee Care Day School in Maplewood, N.J., based on children's accounts that she had inserted knives, spoons and forks in their penis, anus or vagina, painted them with peanut butter, or urinated in their mouths. None of the children showed any sign of injury, but it was not until 1994, after she had spent six years in jail, that Ms. Michaels's conviction was overturned.
Like the Salem witch trials, the day care cases reflected the beliefs of the era, when it was almost an article of faith among some therapists and child-victim groups that children never lie about sexual abuse. Many of the children were swept into a world of interviewers and evaluators who questioned them repeatedly, encouraging and even leading them to describe sexual abuse.
While the cases, in retrospect, seem like mass hysteria, they also stand as a stark reminder of just how suggestible, and unreliable, children's accounts can be. Several studies have shown how easily false memories can be implanted in young children.
In one research study, 114 children ages 3 to 8 met with a man known as Mr. Science, who showed them several simple experiments. In the first interview afterward, the children recalled the session correctly. But after their parents repeatedly told them a story that included events that didn't happen, like having a wet wipe put in their mouth, one-third of the children included those things in their account. In another study, preschool children were asked, weekly, about a fictitious event, and by the 10th week, more than half not only reported that it had happened, but filled in details.
Typically, before allowing a child to testify, judges try to make sure the child knows the difference between fact and fantasy. Often, the judge asks questions like, "If I say my robes are purple, is that true?" or, while holding up four fingers, "If I say I'm holding up two fingers, is that true?"
"It can backfire," said Elizabeth Loftus, a University of Washington psychology professor, who has studied child witnesses. "I saw one case where the lawyer wanted to question the kid, but the judge decided to do it. So the judge put the kid on the stand and said, `Do you know what truth is?' and the kid held up two fingers. That kid wasn't allowed to testify, since it was so clear the lawyer had been coaching."
A better approach, she said, would be to focus less on lies than on whether the child's memory is contaminated. "What goes wrong in these cases is usually not that you have a lying kid but that you have a mistaken kid," Professor Loftus said.
In the California abduction, there was little time for Sarah Ahn's memory to be contaminated by adult suggestions or intervening events, and her questioners had been trained to interview children. (emphasis added by Grits).
But mistaken accounts also arise out of children's overly literal interpretation of questions, or adults' failure to follow up until they understand what a child really knows.
One former prosecutor remembers her son telling her that his father drank blood.
"I said, `No, he doesn't, I know Daddy and I know he doesn't drink blood,' " she said. "But he insisted that he knew his father drank blood and that he would prove it. So he took me to the refrigerator and took out the cranberry juice. For us, it was a funny story. But you can imagine what might happen if he'd said it at school, or if it happened in the middle of a custody case in which I hated my husband."
BAM! Another direct hit. You're pretty good at that JT.
Syn
I agree with you as well, I only hope that folks like Bleep willl take the time to consider how the issues really are.
Actually it is good for folks like bleep to AT LEAST BE HERE when you consider how many of us have tried to help family and friends only not to get past first base- this guy regardless of his views IS HERE and that in my exp is the first step to leave wt- it is very normal for newbies to start out defending wt, but in time the constant info of facts will start to make the avg jw either leave the sight or take the time to look up the ref material or last but not least become a like YK
james
blondie you and out of the org ---
make great points on how things really work- yes as an elder one is
JACK OF ALL TRADES AND MASTERS OF NONE
SIEGSWIFE
just trying to keep IT REAL
"it does not belong to man (Including elders) to direct their own step". Italics myans.
Edited by - Dismembered on 28 July 2002 18:22:22
Edited by - Dismembered on 28 July 2002 18:23:9
I know that I wasn't qualified to handle that kind of case.
All that was provided was a little information in BOE letters, and some notes in the "Flock" book to the effect that you contact the Legal Desk at Bethel.
There was no training of any kind given, especially not on interrogation procedures.
Had I been confronted with a case, would I have known how to handle it? Nope.
Facial Hair Poll: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33229&page=1&site=3
GRITS SAYS
In the California abduction, there was little time for Sarah Ahn's memory to be contaminated by adult suggestions or intervening events, and her questioners had been trained to interview children. (emphasis added by Grits).
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GREAT POINT in fact i due to the mindset and training of elders to PROTECT THE NAME OF THE ORG - elders would be prone to even subconsicously try to ask questions with the hope that the little girl will say
i just made it up- for they realize the implications of what they will have on thier hands if the story is true so even the type of questions, they settting( not a play room with dolls to relaze the little girl
instead she will be in "HE BACK ROOM" Where all jw know is the place folks go who are going to be DFED
THIS IS THE SETTING for a child , yet ever child Dr will tell you this is not the place to have a child recounting such events
yes all the comments on this thread show how when we look at the role "Cheese Crackers" men play in destroying lives
Hi littletoe,
wow the hair grows right before our very eyes. cool.
