IS the NWT really the WT Bible?

by Bleep 103 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • stocwach
    stocwach

    I guess we should both be referencing which Edition of the NWT we are using, because I have the "New Edition" of 1981, and Philippians DOES NOT have brackets around "other. We could argue all day long whether this was an oversight, or it was orginally intended to be deceptive, but the bottom line is the reader of this version will never have a clue that this word does not exist in the orginal text, and therefore the reader has been misled. A Bible translation that allows for this to happen regardless of intention cannot be trusted and considered reliable, especially one in which the biased reason why this word was inserted was again to fit the man made theology that "Jehovah" was used in the NT.

    You said "it would seem that by "context" you mean your understanding of scripture. But if you believe that "firstborn of all creation" means "the one who is born first (of all creation)" then the context certainly implies "other" when it refers to the rest of creation."

    I believe based on what the Bible says as a whole, in other words, the Bible must in general itself be taken in context. You have said in a previous post that what you are defending you believe to be true, rather than defending the organization itself. Consider this: John 1:3 KJV says speaking of Jesus: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." But if we read Isaiah 44:24 KJV: "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" So the Bible is in absolute contradiction here if Jesus was created by God and is the firstborn of creation in the literal sense as you believe, because if this was the actual intentional meaning of the author in Colossians, then Jesus would have been with God as a separate being when everything else was created! The bottom line is the only way anyone objectively can truly reconcile harmony in these Scriptures regardless of what one believes is by acknowledging that Jesus has deity.

    Now taking all of this in consideration, ; 1 John 5:20 makes complete sense in referencing Jesus as the true God, which reads more accurately in the KJV;"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." Clearly taken in context, the previous verses are pointing out that eternal life comes through faith in Jesus, and that we are one with God and one with Jesus, who is also referred to as "he that is true" in Revelation 3:7. Now, you bring up John 17:3. Nowhere there does it say that Jesus is not the only true God. Jehovah's Witnesses use faulty inductive logic to mistakenly presume that Jesus is excluded from God here. This is read into the verse without warrant, again simply to match JW theology. When taking the entire Bible in context with the various Scriptures I've mentioned in this post, it is easy to see here that the contrast of "only true God" in John 17:3 is against idols and false Gods, which falls in harmony with 1 John 5:21 guarding against idols.

    As for John 20:28, I am pleased to see that you have signs of a somewhat level head on your shoulders, for acknowledging the difficulty of reconciling your belief system with such a clear contradiction to it. You say however: "Although Jesus didn't rebuke him I don't think that was the time or place for it". You've got to be kidding me? The entire disciples are witnessing this exchange, and you expect us to believe that such a blasphemy as this (if Jesus was merely a separate being) would go unrebuked? I'm sorry, Earnest, but your subjectivity is blatantly obvious.On the contrary, what a more appropriate time to settle the matter once and for all if Thomas was wrong!! You also say "An implied rebuke was given by the writer of the account who concluded that "these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God". I am sure Thomas got the message. Did you?" How in the world do you get a rebuke out of that? Your logic is ridiculous. It is obvious that you are grasping at straws, again especially in light of the entire Biblical context which makes your comment nonsensical.

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    Did I stumble someone on this topic? Why the bad rating?

  • larc
    larc

    Bleep, you appear to be out of your element on this subject.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    stocwach:

    Regarding our discussion on the addition of the word "other" and the use of brackets in Philippians 2:9 - I was referring to the 1984 edition of the NWT which does use brackets in this verse.

    I agree with you that the crux of the matter in translating many scriptures is the context of the Bible as a whole. Does the Bible as a whole teach that Jesus is distinct from Jehovah or that those scriptures that refer to Jehovah are also referring to Jesus and vice versa. Judging from previous discussions on this topic we are not going to get agreement. It is one thing to discuss the translation of a particular verse but to agree on the nature of God and Christ seems an elusive goal (and probably a rather presumptuous one). So when it comes to scriptures such as Colossians 1:15-17 I simply believe there is no absolutely correct way to translate it. The grammar allows for the "firstborn" to be either included or excluded from creation. While translators are not interpreters, in verses such as this they either believe Paul meant to include the firstborn in creation or to exclude him. However they translate the verse they are showing bias one way or the other. There is no middle path. So while I would argue that it is quite justified to add "other" to give the original sense to the translation I would also agree that a translation excluding the firstborn from creation is similarly justified. It is for the reader to compare translations (or learn the original language) in order to grasp the fullness of what is written.

    As for John 20:28 where Thomas says "My Lord and my God" I have to say I would have thought you would have difficulties with that verse too. In John 1:1 he says that the Word was with [the] God. While Jesus is described as "theos" in the N.T. the expression "the God" (ho theos) is only used of the Father. So John was effectively writing that the Word was with the Father. Jesus also used Thomas' expression "my God" (* ho theos mou) of the Father several times at Revelation 3:12. If you think Thomas meant what he said (that Jesus was his Lord and God the Father) then surely you also think he was mistaken.

    Earnest

    * In Revelation 3:12 it is the genitive case ["of my God" (tou theou mou)] of the expression used by Thomas.

    Edited by - Earnest on 4 August 2002 20:20:56

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    Larc says I'm out of my element. You are just sad you didn't come up with the subject. So many of my subjects are right on. True, nobody likes to be judged so I will make a small assessment about this forum here.

    I know some stuff since I am a reader of the Watchtower. You can't judge it all unless you read some of it. And if I try to quote some of the Watchtower, people get real nasty here. Even If I type it word for word and quote it from a brand spanking new publication.

    Now why does this subject get to 1000 posts if It is out of it's element?

    Shows me that I am right on the subject to say It is a good Bible to use by asking people if the NWT really is the WT Bible. The Watchtower might change every now and then according to it's promise of the right information at the proper time, but the NWT never changes.

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    No where in the NWT does it say to commit fornication or adultery. It even goes one step farther and says Idolatry is wrong and mankind should only worship the Heavenly Father. Many people on this planet worship models, sports, and drugs.

    Please show me where the NWT shows support of child molesters or pedophiles.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    People respond to your posts because your an annoying twit.Others respond because your thickheaded and they want to help you.I respond because your an easy joke,most everything you post is nonsense.For instance:"The Watchtower might change every now and then according to its promise of the right information at the proper time." The Watchtower wouldn`t have to change if they were right to begin with.If the information wasn`t right the first time that means it was wrong.If the information is wrong that means the Watchtower was lying to you....larc is right,you are out of your element..LOL...OUTLAW

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Bleep:

    Please show me where the NWT shows support of child molesters or pedophiles.

    It doesnt Bleep, but the WT has shown plenty of support of child molestors or pedophiles. So according to your own statement, the NWT does not support the WT. Since you support the NWT, then you cannot honestlyy support the WT. And since you dont support the WT, then you by defenition are an appostate. If this logic is too deep for you I have a cure.

    *Click* *Click* *Click* *Click* *Click* *Click*

  • stocwach
    stocwach

    Earnest, your rebuttal is very poor, as you failed to acknowledge the obvious contradiction re: creation. Perhaps you read too fast. Go back at my last post and see if you can reconcile the contradiction with your belief system. Failure for you to come up with an explanation will prove my point.

  • stocwach
    stocwach

    BTW Earnest--you are wrong again--the definite article "ho" does not appear in the original Greek in John 20:28, nor in John 1:1, nor in Revelation 3:12, so your argument is truly baseless. In fact, the JWs use the indefinite article in John 1:1,which clearly then allows for the Bible to contradict itself, because in context the verse tells us that that the Word has always been and verse three tells us that the Word created everything. To reference Jesus as some sort of sub god is ridiculous. It becomes polytheism if we consider him a "true" god, or the only other possibility then is he is a "false" god, which makes him unworthy of any sort credence whatsoever. Again, all of this is contradictory to what the Bible actually says, and to deliberately insert definite and indefinite articles where it changes the actaul meaning is again condemned by God.

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