Most Dubs Know Its Garbage.........

by ISP 18 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ISP

  I have contacts with quite a few dubs....still and can talk freely to a small number. Thats the conclusion that I've come to. At least ones that have been in it some time. There might be a few zealous newbies that are taken in but the ones I know are tired out and don't argue too much. They respond by saying that they don't care if the end doesn't come. They still like the lifestyle. One couple who have been married for 20+ years says that without the 'truth' they would have left each other by now. They seem to believe that being in the Org. keeps them on the 'straight and narrow' and without the Org. they would be out of control.

  An Elder who I was discussing my criticisms with said..'I know where my kids are...who they are with..and that there will be no trouble'. He seems to think that his kids, who are teenagers, are better off living a dub life. He doesn't respond with counter-arguments. I guess he knows better.

  I discussed the 'Panorama' programme with a dub and she was very edgy. She wouldn't say much but she wanted me to write to the Society about the 23,000 list, which I have done, BTW. She is another one that thinks without the Org. she would be out drinking etc.

  I seem to conclude that a fair number don't really believe it. Some are looking for niches to escape the normal dub life.Some have moved out to live in Spain...and witness of course. They don't go on the work there as they don't know Spanish but spend their days, informallly witnessing to English people on the beaches. Some are 'depressed'...got M.E. and don't do much. Thats not to say that these ones are ready to leave. I could think of nothing worse than to stay in the Org. knowing it was garbage but it seems many do.

  ISP
• 

  Xander

  d00d - where on earth do YOU live?

  My family (and the wife's) utterly, TOTALLY, buys into the whole JW propoganda.

  My in-laws won't by retirement property in Hawaii (which they can afford now - but won't be able to too much longer) because 'the end will come before we can enjoy it'.

  Dead serious. They aren't planning for retirement, they just have left everything to 'gods hands'. (That ends up translating to 'if this system somehow does continue, I'm sure the hall or our kids will provide'. )

  My mom is just as bad. It's like - they never planned to be in the system THIS long, and are now depressed. Their 'defense mechanism' is, of course, denial at their current situation. Which actually plays right into the Org's hand. 'Just don't think about the present - the new system will be wonderful!'

  Makes me furious.
• 

  Skeptic

  Good observations.

  My observations are that most Witnesses are now like good Catholics. They don't study the religion, go through any required motions, and dont't know anything more than the very basics of their faith. When they want to break the rules, they do...hell, most don't even know the rules any more! Nor do they care.

  This is normal for a mature religion. Growth is through having children, without many external converts. Most don't know the gory details of their faith.

  Just my 2 cents,

  Richard
• 

  Ice Blue

  Responsibility - it takes away responsibility.

  The rules are hard and fast, mostly black and white (well mostly black) and we are bound to them for many reasons, guilt being the foremost. We become mindless and controlled, actively discouraged from making decisions about what is right and what is wrong. All moral dilemmas are covered in one book or another, all possible experiences (including likely outcomes) explained, eventually eroding our trust in ourselves to the point of becoming incapable of believing that it is actually possible to lead a clean, upright and worthwhile life - and make the decisions to do so all by yourself.

  Edited by - Ice Blue on 31 July 2002 18:2:27
• 

  Jesika

  Some people I have found need to be told what to do. It is too hard for them to make their own decisions and so they will let others do it for them as they bury their head in the sand at any sign of trouble. To use guidelines given by others--so called inspired by God---gives them a reason to stay and they will not argue cause they are robots. The simple fact that they believe they will run completely wild and loose all control of themselves and their families shows the brainwashing of that belief or the more simple conclusion of being weak.

  Let them hold on to it, I am not weak and will not be told how to live or how to raise my child. I strongly believe if they decided to break from the WT, they would only find another religion or sect to fill the void. Cattle is what it reminds me of----all rounded up and if led to a cliff and not told to stop, would simply step right of it. Stupid!!!!!

  Don't get me wrong, all those having doubts, that is a sign of thinking and asking questions. That is not stupid, that is the road to thinking for yourself, it isn't easy at first, but oh the rewards later!!!!!!!!!!!

  Only my opinion and hope I didn't offend anyone.

  Love Jesika
• 

  DanTheMan

  I think that dubs are like fundies (well, they are fundies, just of a different stripe), in that their religion is an insurance policy. For dubs, it's Armageddon-insurance, for the fundies it's fire insurance, but the fear mentality is the same.
• 

  teenyuck

  I agree with all of you.

  Think of how dubs react when faced with the real "truth." That is the truth of the borg. Who wants to admit you belong to a life controlling, mysogynistic cult?

  They insist the person pointing out the flaws in the organization is demonized, apostate, evil and every other word you can think of to discredit them...in their own eyes. This leaves them feeling superior and comfortable.

  The thought of living forever with those people is enough to make me never want to be affiliated with them.

  I gave my mom CoC, sent her the elders manual and all kinds of proof that Chas T. Russell and Rutherford were frauds. She is not interested in the truth. What else is there is her lament. It is easier to be a dub than to really think about it.

  As Jack Nicholson said in a few good men...."You want the truth? You can't handle the truth."
• 

  bay64me

  Well, ISP, you are probably right, yet that pisses me off somewhat!

  I joined the org when I was at an age that I should have known better. Nontheless, without offering further excuses, I swallowed the bait and got baptised.

  The thing that really pisses me off is the fact that I was unaware at that time of the "lukewarm" clan! I was totally and utterly blind to the fact that there existed a JW that was not 100% zealous for the "truth"! ! !

  I was absolutel yonfu ckingfire and bombarded my own neighbourhood with offers of bible studies and magazines galore all the while believing that my "fellow-workers" were as keen and eager as I.

  Whataf uckingd isappointment when I found out the reality of the situation!

  Most of the members in my old congregation were half -hearted, self -righteous,lazybastards who couldn't care less about Mr or Mrs Havn'tgotaclue and would never think twice about offering a BIBLE STUDY (which after all was meant to provide the knowledge that leads to everlasting life)!
• 

  teenyuck

  On Just JW's, a poster named applebee posted a question:

  It should be noted that applebee is considered an apostate or close to it.

  "Does the Society Use Mind Control on Us?"

  Here are some of the responses:

  From: fscouserjw

  Sent: 7/31/2002 5:18 AM

  applebee I agree with ryck on this you have obviously fallen away (apostate) so why are you here . This site is for jws only to upbuild spiritually not to tear down . many bruthers and sisters have issues and questions but you dont see them airing them here in an anti jw anti society way . I suggest you go through the proper channels ie your elders if you still attend meetings .If you feel your mind has been controlled it is obviously because you have allowed it to be . Personally i control my mind by what i allow to enter it . If i dissagree with something i research it until i can reconcile it . sometimes the society get things wrong but then so do i . The decisions i make on behalf of my family i make because i want the best for them i do make the wrong ones so does the society and in my experience they have put things straight . so applebee chill out a bit youre not the only one with doubts but stop posting thing that dont upbuild your brothers Agape Dan

  From: Henry Largo 150

  Sent: 7/31/2002 7:08 AM

  Applebee Mind control has no place in a truely Christian Society. It cannot work long turm, is always destuctive. Freedom of choice, to join or not to join a group must be in place. Jesus invited people to follow him, some did some did not, it was up to them. If the choice was yes then it ment that the indivdual would then be living by a code of conduct, it could cause problems in families. It could bring persecution. It ment meeting with others of like faith. Still people had the right to leave if they wanted to. Yet individuals who left were not considered enemies unless they turned on their former brothers and sarted to give then grief. Disellowshiping some who practiced bad was done to help them see the need for change, and them receive them back again. The Apostles made some rulings the would afect the lives of believers, they were encoraged to work in line with then for the sake of unity,"the christ does not exist divided does he" Could Jesus and the early church be acused of mind control? No of course not. Jehovah's Witnesses have the same view of disciple making and brotherhood. While visiting this board you have met many Witnesses all with different personalities, ways of looking at thing, questions that trouble them, levels of faith. Many study deeply, research subjects from other sourses outside the Society as well as in. Then have made the choice to be and stay witness. Because someone rejects your view doesn't mean that our mind is controled. It just means we have drawn different conclusions. And you should respect that. Henry

  From: the_Crime_Doctor

  Sent: 7/31/2002 2:51 PM

  Hello Applebee, What started out as a few criticisms against the "organization" has now sadly become endless tirade. The problem with you calling down people who choose to remain JWs is the fact you yourself seem to have your mind "controlled"(influenced is a better word) by other sources. I am more than willing to discuss the fallibility of the society, but your endless stream of criticisms is getting a little tiresome. To be honest, the fact you no longer choose to associate with JWs (with the exception of criticizing them over the net) damages your credibility as an objectionable source. Since you have separated yourself from this organization, you seek not to help others deal with the problems within the organization, but you are directing them elsewhere(I know not where that may be...). Proverbs 18:1 He who separates himself seeks his own desire, He quarrels against all sound wisdom.--NASB Henry is wrong to think the society handles disfellowshipping in the same way as the 1st century Christians. But he is right when he says they did in fact shun people in the Bible. You are right when you say the 1st century Christians did not resort to mental abuse to keep everyone in line. They would not do as the society does now and subtly infer the needed dependence on THEM(not God and His Son) in their writings. It is becoming very obvious that you do not read your Bible on a regular basis. Either that or you have a selective memory. There are several examples of the Bible where shunning is advised. Titus 3:10 A man whose opinions are not those of the church, after a first and second protest, is to be kept out of your society;--BEB Matthew 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.--NASB Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.--NASB I Cor. 5:11-13 warns us to "shun" one who calls himself Christians and lives an unChristian life. So the Bible DOES tell us to shun. One point I feel I must make concerning Rom. 16:17 is that this is for the major teachings. Because in Rom. 14:2-5 we see leniency given to some that is not given to others by the society. So please Applebee, I am asking that you show some concern for others or I will be forced to ask the site managers for your removal. Nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism, however you only seem to critisize. Respectfully,,

  They are terrified on that board that apostates may be lurking.
• 

  Pistoff

  MY wife does NOT want to hear, look at or discuss the problems in this literally god-forsaken faith. She looks for an answer from me on all areas involving science, politics, word meanings, computers, etc but on this one subject she thinks that I am just looking for a reason to quit.
  I have come to the point that i am feeling responsible for my family being in this organization, and I think we are all at least half nuts from it.
  I have learned lately it is called cognitive dissonance, which can mean (this is NOT a real definition, I know) believing one thing when the evidence is pointing to the contrary, and experiencing the unease that results. I see it in her, she won't read much that even the WT puts out these days, and when I point out the Worship book being with out the three chapters on blood, mosaic law and "remnant" she just changes the subject.
  I just cannot take it any more. When I am at the meetings, I resist the urge to tell the truth about what we are learning, the truth about the UN, disfellowshipping, the works, and ESPECIALLY the fraudulent idea that we are led by the governing body made up of members of the little flock. Several years ago I made the comment to my nephew that the society would have to address the problem of the aging GB and allow the other sheep to take over; the result was a very blank stare and no words at all.

  NOW we see the laughable Nethinim idea, I didn't even remember reading about it in '92.

  Around here, the northern plains of the US, people still take it seriously. The congregation I left was a vicious collection of cliques, power trippers, lying elders and military minds; the one i am in now is mostly very nice people, and that really makes it hard, they eat up the pablum offered and shut off their brains.

  wow, sorry to rant so much, but I am as always

  pistoff