Who are the 144,000? (page 3)

plmkrzy

Hi, Plum;
OK, so we're talking about British-Israel and not Mormon teaching. Different cult.

Our proofs have never been properly refuted. The
basic claims we have made are irrefutable. If one cannot deny our
claims and there is nobody else who can it follows that one should
accept them.

In regards to that comment, Yeh it's pretty stupid. In fact after I read this I e-mailed the author of this particular article and asked the very same thing you did.LOL

"What kind of reasoning is that?"

I, believe it or not, got a response. I'll e-mail it to you if you like. My impression of this dudue was "Traveling Salesman"

To take this a bit in another direction, I have read other accounts from many various places..ysdds ysdds ysdds... I would like to read what you have about it and I'm going to try and dig out what I have. For me this is interesting.

Plum

Edited by - plmkrzy on 3 August 2002 11:57:53

NeonMadman

I, believe it or not, got a response. I'll e-mail it to you if you like. My impression of this dudue was "Traveling Salesman"

Sure, I'd like to read what he said.

I will get that info soon, I will, I will, I will...doesn't look like I'll have time to dig before Sunday night as it stands now, but I'll try to get a few things together then....

plmkrzy

kewl, no hurry I ain't going anywhere take your time.

plum

Trotafox

Why did the number of them steadily dwindle away until about the mid-1980's and then seemed to halt at around 8,000 and has been in that range ever since?Anybody got any ideas on this one?

dsgal: The WTS teaches that if one of the 144,000 leaves the fold (as in disfellowshipped or disassociated), another "younger" chosen one who believes he/she is anointed can take their place.

How convenient! They have a made-up answer for everything, don't they.

Trot

In_between_days

2) If the WT is right, why would Jehovah want 144,000 who by and large believed pagan doctrine while on earth, to rule & reign in heaven? For instance, most of the 144,000 believed Jesus died on a cross, returned in 1874, was not Michael the Archangel, they were taught to worship Jesus. They voted, smoked, took part in government, celebrated birthdays and Christmas. Were allowed to get transfusions, etc, etc,
Why wouldn't Jehovah wait till the end and pick the 144,000 out who had the most pure doctrine?

I talked about this with my JW sis. She said that the part in Rev when it sais "They are virgins" means that they are a pure congregation that does not take part in pagan celebrations and other no-no's. I brought this point up, and she became really frustrated. As usual, a refusal to talk about it because it was "apostate".

Seriously, how can people beleive this utter BS? I have asked JW's how symbolic tribes can add up to a literal number and they look at me like they have never thought of that before, and then kick into some tangent which makes absolutely no sense.

drahcir yarrum

I wouldn't get too worked up about any numbers mentioned in the book of Revelation. Years ago after I left the JW's I started reading stacks of books on the Bible and religions in general. I guess I was searching for a replacement religion at that time. Anyway I remember reading a theological work that furnished a good deal of evidence that Revelation should not be considered a part of the Bible canon. Perhaps one of our serious researchers could provide some insight on this belief. I think part of the evidence was disimilarities in the writing styles of John in his other works and the style of Revelation. There were other issues as well, but it has been a number of years since I read about it.

NeonMadman

OK, Plum, here are some references on the British-Israel issue...

As I mentioned, within the past 40 or 50 years, the biggest proponent of British-Israel theory was Herbert W. Armstrong and his Worldwide Church of God. They distributed millions of copies of his book, The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy, which spelled out his arguments for the doctrine. However, in the years after Armstrong's death in 1986, the WCG that he founded abandoned most of his doctrinal structure, including the complete British-Israel doctrine. Appropriately, then, it is on their website that I found the most detailed and abundant amount of information regarding the topic. Follow these two links (and they will lead to many more links on the subject):

http://www.wcg.org/lit/prophecy/anglo/default.htm
http://www.wcg.org/lit/prophecy/anglo/usb-study.htm

Some other good points on the subject (and a more concise argument) could be found at:

http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/a06britishisraelism/britishisrael.html

And, last, an article on British-Israel teaching and the racist Christian Identity movement:

http://www.equip.org/free/DI100.htm

All that should keep you reading for a while. Let me know what you think.

Edited by - NeonMadman on 4 August 2002 14:17:56

plmkrzy

Thanks Madman. I'll get back to you later. Don't know how long it will take me to go through all this.

Plum

Truth2Me

DSGAL, I asked a sister why the yearbook actually showed an increase in the number of "annoying" ones and she told me that was because some of the annointed had been in prison and stuff like that so because of persecution they had not previously been counted, so it just LOOKED like there was an increase, but really there wasn't....makes sense to me.....but I don't buy the whole WT junkola about the 144,000 anyway....especially after reading Raymond Franz's "Crisis of Conscience."

Truth2Me

In_between_days

) If the WT is right, why would Jehovah want 144,000 who by and large believed pagan doctrine while on earth, to rule & reign in heaven? For instance, most of the 144,000 believed Jesus died on a cross, returned in 1874, was not Michael the Archangel, they were taught to worship Jesus. They voted, smoked, took part in government, celebrated birthdays and Christmas. Were allowed to get transfusions, etc, etc,

I also brought this up with my mother, who said that they did'nt realise what they were doing was pagan, so that makes it alright, they where not being deliberately hypocritical.

o.k

Who are the 144,000?

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