by JanH 114 Replies latest jw friends
Mike Musto,
Too Funny!
All Others--this discussion is most interesting! Ex-JW arguing Scientific Methodology!!! And to think, when I was in tenth grade, the natural progression of Science Instruction was Biology. I was not the only JW youth who was not allowed to take the Biology class because "it taught evolution."
PS, Jan, what is your career? Are you a scientist? Just wondering.
plmkrzy: When I said, "In the mind of the general public 'evolution' occurs when one species changes into another", I did not mean that I have followed along with the opinions of the general public, rather that the word, in everyday used as perceived by me is understood that way by the general public. That is why it is important to make sure that in discussing a topic the people participating either agree to use a specific word in a specific way, or agree that each one has bis/her own understanding of that word.
Xander: I appreciate what you said regarding evolution being based on small changes, but my view is that the small changes pointed to do not constitute a part of a process in which the body that is evolving into a different species. I realise now that I should have made that more clear. You are, of course right that the basic meaning of evolution is "gradual development, esp. from a simple to a more complex form" (definition from The Oxford English Reference Dictionary).
Jan: I've read and studied the material presented in "Observed Instances Of Speciation". I made a number of notes, and will be presenting my comments on this document soon. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, it is well written and very informative.
Kind regards.
I like how you guys debate, it is soooo refreshing :)
You have chosen an apt name. - Thanks, I earned it in the Marines. I was an 0311 rifleman, hence Grunt. I'm proud of the name and its connotations to the people who shared it with me.
Is a snowflake complicated? - Yeah, I doubt you would have ever made one without mechanical help. They seem to stop a lot of airplanes and lord knows what Norway could've been but for them.
Who's the maker? - I guess the author of the weather and the materials it is made of. Are you going to answer any of these questions, or is it all up to me??? I guess this question kind of sums up our discussion, what started out as our discussion I mean.
Who's the Maker......? Trick question???
Ok, I think God is, though I have no idea of just what or whom God really IS. A little mean I think sometimes, until I hug my wife or eat a good meal, but real smart, awful smart. Must have had an EDUCATION. Just like us, I mean y'all.
How about amino acids spontaneously forming in a test-tube? - I don't know. I don't deal with them. What was in the tube before they formed? Are you asking this question to inform me? Did you think I knew? If I don't, does that make me stupid??? Pathetically idiotic??? Surely not Self-Aggrandizing???
Your barn analogy is not only pathetically idiotic, it is also self-aggrandizing. - How did I know you would insult me again?!? Oh, yeah, I read ahead. Anyway, I how did this tie in to the other? Why did you insult me yet again? Are you going to start talking about exotic cheeses and Thai Shrimp again, if so why? To impress people??? Are your insults and references to my "pathetically idiotic" stuff supposed to make you seem smart? If so isn't that "self-aggrandizing?" Are those insults somehow relevant and I just don't get it? At the risk of seeming like a pathetic idiot, let me give you some advice for the future, Insults are usually a mistake, try and avoid them. They never elevate you in the eyes of your audience and often dilute your arguments. This is especially true in regard to coarse, personally denigrating remarks like those you seem inclined to, they reflect your heart from which your mouth is pouring all this bile. Hmmm, was that an insult? Man, I am stupid!
So you are Mr/Mrs back-to-the-Earth former of barns. --Uh, you uh, you seem to think I was bragging. Why? Building an old barn is no big deal, I'm sorry if that intimidates you. Are you barn challenged??? If it helps, it wasn't that big, though it does have a loft. Its the way I use it that really counts. Its where I keep my old camper and my bikes. It isn't fancy at all. I had gone camping out at Mesa Verde and seen the cliff dwellings and they made me want to build something myself just from nature and without modern tools. I did use tin on the roof though. I mentioned building it because it posed problems with the different sizes and angles on the poles when I tried to keep my structure square and plumb. For me it was very hard to make the round poles work together and keep it all right and sound. To you maybe it would have posed no problem, but then you are used to molecular chain reactions, this was only cedar trees and stone. I was using the insignificance of my little problems which I worked hard to solve as a counter to all the really difficult problems of evolution which I guess you think happened without a problem solver there trying to figure them out. If you didn't get that I'm sorry. If the simplicity of what I said aroused contempt in you then maybe you are a vain, snobbish, small-minded, cur of a little man who.....oops! insults are always a mistake. Insults are always a mistake!
Who gives a stuff? - Is this an English phrase? Norwegian??? Who gives a stuff...oh, are you slumming again? Did you mean to say SHIT??? Ah, now that phrase I have heard and understand. Listen, if you are going to play at being a Harsh Man, a man of the Real World who passed the Acid Test, then you are going to have to get away from "stuff" and "mf" and "doo-doo" ok? Be hot or cold, but not lukewarm. My those old verses do still apply well even when misused, now don't they?
I've painted tons of houses, WOW! (By the way we measure ships in tons, for houses we usually use square feet, but in your case I guess neighborhoods might have been more appropriate.)
replaced scores of windows, GEE WHIZ!!
fixed fleets of cars-NORWAY!!! opps, I mean NO WAY!!!
and mown meadows of grass. - EGADS!!!! You must have been a Witness!
Glad you got out. Of course if a know it all snob stays in it hurts their image more, but hey, that is too high a price to ask you to pay. I'm still glad you found your way out of that stupid mistake you made, if it makes you feel any better, I bought it too. But I'm not buying evolution or AMWAY. I learned my lesson.
So what? Any fool knows that those things cannot be done by chance. - That was my point. None of the things in my life were ever done by accident either. I also appreciate your calling some of the people on your side of the argument fools too, though I'd rather you just let it go. You know what the Scripture says about calling your brother a fool.
You aren't so much missing the point as being too ignorant as to even know that there is a point. - Point??? What point??? Ha, my ignorance AGAIN!!!! There you go. You don't explain your point, you say that I just couldn't understand it because of my ignorance. That ignorance is I guess relative to your great intelligence??? Again. Well, no use wasting time on me, I don't deserve a real reply anyway, right?
Lest you be unduly insulted - Too late but a good laugh ameliorates some of the sting.
I will state that I do like you - I try to like you, but it is a battle I am losing, despite the laughs you've supplied me. Thanks, by the way, for liking me. Man, what must you say to those whom you dislike???
for you are trying.- Thanks, again. I appreciate it and also appreciate the lack of insults.
But it's a big mf of a universe and trying don't count for much.- Ah well, back to that again. Slumming. Oh, and threw in "trying don't count for much." Are you trying to make me feel at home or something??? In my home we don't talk like that. I guess really smart people like you, Oh mower of Meadows , Painter of Houses and Fixer of Cars, (are you a Barrel Rider also??? Do I seem dragon like to you by any chance???) so far by the way those are the only things you've said that impressed me, if you aren't lying of course.
Try thinking, and after that, get some education. - Hmmm, now I have to wonder how you judge my education. We have both made some typos, we both seem to have humble beginnings, we were both deceived by a cult, but you are a genius and I remain an idiot because I think things need a builder and said so??? Maybe the use of big words like MF make you smarter than me??
Without that you are just as worth listening to as a monkey with its finger up its ass and its head firmly buried in a pile of deep doodoo. - Ah, common enough to hint at MF but not common enough to say shit. You walk a fine line professor. Is this your idea of a good analogy, along with the cheese and Thai shrimp? I can see why you didn't appreciate mine.
Harsh? yes.- No, not really. A little sad, a little funny, but harsh??? Not by a long shot. Harsh to me brings back something besides word games on a computer. I am glad that this fits your definition of harsh though. I'm happy for you.
But get used to it, that is the way of evolution - Well then, no wonder I don't agree with it. So this was the basis for your views on evolution??? You make a powerful argument, I mean your masterful use of mf, doo-doo, stuff, and I guess that monkey reference was no accident either, huh? It all ties together in some way I can't fathom, doesn't it?
you can perhaps accrue attention on a board like this - Hmmm, is that an insult to the board at large??? Why??? Are they stupid too???
, or amongst loony creationists,- So you find the board equivalent to a group of "Loony Creationists" once again, what have they done to deserve that remark, wasn't I a big enough target or do you have to claim to be smarter than groups of people to salve your inferiority complex???
but can you go out into the real world? That's the acid test. - I'll have to say that I imagine I have dealt more with the REAL world than you by far. If this seems HARSH to you I know I have. If your remarks seem SMART to you I know I have. The acid test, huh??? Tell me master, how will I know if I have failed??? Will it have anything to do with with what type of cheese I use???
If I don't use My "buddy" Jan -who I don't even know other than electronically, but whom you stupidly associate with me based only on our coalescence of opinion - Most friendships begin with a "coalescence" of opinion, I have been reading your posts and Jan's from the old H20 days. You can make friends online. Ask Windrider? Once again you have to call me stupid, I begin to suspect you have had some serious social problems. If not then it is a wonder. If you go around calling people "stupid" and "MF" and so forth with people in the "real world" you will wind up being treated harshly and find another definition for the word. Of course you aren't talking face to face. I would guess you are the type that flips birds at people in traffic??? Well, I'm not the road rage type, so you are safe.
no doubt can. I can too. can you? - If not then trust in God. Or the Watchtower. - It was a struggle to see how this connected, then I saw, you were saying that you and Jan could make it in the "real world" and pass the "acid test" right? Hmmm, I can't imagine how you could judge me in regards to the real world. Do you know what I do for a living??? I don't think so. Do you assume because I built a barn I am poverty stricken or down and out??? Or somehow smarter than you? Does your vast intelligence make your success in the "real world" guaranteed while my ignorance assures my failure??? Ha. You remind me of a movie I like a lot called the "Princess Bride" there is a character in it called the Sicilian if I remember right, you share some characteristics. Are you sure "Real World" means what you think it does??? I don't it means what you think it does.
As for trusting in God, though I disagree with much that he has done, I would still trust the intelligence of the creator of all that I stand in awe of, than to subject myself to trusting people like you. As for trusting the Watchtower, well, I don't. You use the same kind of arguments they do, mostly namecalling, little substance, as in Apostate or Pathetic Idiot. Ok, they have classier insults than you, but they are a lot harsher. They'll steal your family. You just make noises and imitate an educated person.
Hugs, - No thanks.
G-man. - Glad you like the moniker I gave you.
ps: not all educated people in the world know each other.......there are many of these types - Sadly, many people think "Education" means passing college courses. Education and culture in the "Real World" involve more than a piece of paper on a wall. Now that is ignorance.
As for trusting in God, though I disagree with much that he has done, I would still trust the intelligence of the creator of all that I stand in awe of, than to subject myself to trusting people like you. As for trusting the Watchtower, well, I don't. You use the same kind of arguments you do, mostly namecalling, little substance, as in Apostate or Pathetic Idiot. Ok, they have classier insults than you, but they are a lot harsher. They'll steal your family. You just make noises and imitate an educated person.
Hugs, - No thanks.
G-man. - Glad you like the moniker I gave you. Is that other name some kind of cheese??? Or maybe a rare pastel shrimp???
ps: not all educated people in the world know each other.......there are many of these types - Sadly, many people think "Education" means passing college courses. Education and culture in the "Real World" involve more than a piece of paper on a wall. Now that is ignorance.
pps: edited for typos and several missed opportunities for insult. - alas, you left all the crass ones didn't you? Or could you tell the difference?
Grunt
pps: edited for typos and several missed opportunities for insult. - alas, you left all the crass ones didn't you? Or could you tell the difference?
Grunt
Grunt,
I like Mesa Verde too. It's much better when you're not on whatever it seems that you're on.
Gedanken
Gedanken, I think Grunt is running on common sense and anger. Neither of which are worth a good god damn in a scientific discussion. That usually comes as a big surprise to people (like myself) who've always prided themselves on common sense.
Did you think I knew? If I don't, does that make me stupid???
No, it just makes you not qualified to argue the validity of the experiment.
THAT'S the problem here. That you don't know enough about the topic to debate it isn't a problem - lots of people don't.
But, then...here's the key....if you DON'T KNOW enough to debate something. DON'T.
Don't use YOUR life experiences as if they have any kind of meaning at all in regards to evolution.
Because they don't.
What happens at a molecular level and smaller really has very little, if any, similarities to how anything you can observe behaves.
None of the things in my life were ever done by accident either
Right - here you go again.
SO WHAT!
None of 'the things in your life' have any relevance to molecular science, do they?
Me
: We have no tangible evidence that one species evolved into another.
A SUMMARY AND COMMENTS ON "OBSERVED INSTANCES OF SPECIATION"
[6.2] Concerning "obligately asexual organisms", "OIOS" asserts that "it is not obvious how much change is necessary to claim that a population has speciated" (4.2). Of course, as "OIOS" points out, there are those 'species' which change shape within their lifetimes, but this does not make them a new 'species'. An example of this would be a caterpillar (i.e. it 'changes' into a butterfly).
7. Observed Instances Of 'Speciation'
[7.1] This article will deal only with observed 'speciation' examples given in "OIOS" to which BSC can be applied via the taxonomic scheme. It will not accept as 'evidence' those examples which have been 'hypothesized' or thought 'may' have been cases of 'speciation'. I will refer to these examples as 'observed BSC-definable'. Since I don't currently feel qualified to make comments in the field of genetics, I will not attempt to discuss those reports that deal explicitly with unusual chromosomal changes, nor any cases that fall into the category of "ambigious".
[7.2] "OIOS" gives four examples of observed BSC-definable 'speciation' in plants (5.1.1). In three of these cases each had a common genus - Primula, Trapopogonan, and Brassica.
[7.3] The strange case of the radish and cabbage is of particular interest as both have a different genus (Raphanus and Brassica, respectively). "Plants grown from the seeds were interfertile with each other. They were not interfertile with either parental species." These plants "had the foliage of a radish and the root of a cabbage". If this report is verifiable, then those who would define a 'species' by genus, would probably think that biologists might like to take another look at how they group vegetables. Certainly in this case there is obviously some compatibilty between the two groups. Nevertheless, I do find this example to be worthy of note.
[7.4] In the case of Woodsia abbeae (5.1) both 'parents' came from the same Woodsia genus. Likewise with the examples involving genus Stephanomeira and genus Zea.
[7.5] The cases reported involving fruit flies (5.3) all involve 'strains' of the same type of fly. So, any 'speciation' occurred within the same genus. This is true of examples relating to houseflies (5.4) and the Gall Former Fly (5.5).
[7.6] Examples involving flour beetles (5.6) and Lab Rat worms (5.7) involved the same type (different "strains"), as did the "parasite or symbiont" example (5.8).
8. Conclusion
9. Important Update
[9.1] The same evening that I completed this article, I thought I would take a look at the genera for camels and llamas. I was amazed to find that these both have different genera (Camelus and Lama). However, both share the same 'family' name (next category above genus) of Camelidae. You may be wondering why I was interested in those two types of animals and why I was surprised by the different genera. Good point! Here is the reason why.
[9.2] Several months ago I was watching a documentary channel on cable television and saw with my own eyes a 'hybrid' produced from a camel and a llama. It appeared in good health. I was at first wide-eyed looking at this animal as if it had come from outer space!
[9.3] The first thing I wondered was how on earth this was possible from two different animal types. However, after the initial shock of seeing this hybrid, I realised that llamas and camels have a lot in common. If we take away the hump(s) and consider not the size, but the main characteristics of both animals it becomes apparent that there is a definite number of 'family' traits. Most noticeable to me were the unusual face (especially the eyes and mouth), the longish neck, and the legs.
[9.4] So, I looked up the entry on llamas in my animal encylopaedia and read that "of all the domestic animals it is the most suitable for the steep mountain paths and the hard ground and can go without food and water longer than any other". It also said that on "the march the animals go in single file, like camels", so it seemed they also share important biological and behavioural traits.
[9.5] These similarities made me think that in some cases genera as determined by biologists are not always as inclusive as perhaps they should be, and the 'family' name would be more akin to the idea of genus. Which is why adopting the biologists definitions, in my opinion, should not be used as an unbendable rule for determining types of groupings. Perhaps, then the "Folk Concept of Species" or the mental grouping of animals according to what they look like has a role to play here. My idea of 'species' is intrinsically based upon extremely distinct lifeforms, so a new 'species' to me would be the product of, say, a cat and a dog as they are significantly dissimilar. This means that convincing evidence of 'speciation', to me, would have to be on that level.
(Edited to include update. Original text not changed)
Edited by - NewWay on 7 August 2002 20:30:2
Original Message:
I'm not joking, but when I opened Internet Explorer I got a pop-up dialogue box telling me that my hard disc had been prepared for formatting and the next time I started the computer I would have to reinstall the operating system. It seems my computer has picked up a 'virus', so if you don't see any posts from me soon, you will know why! Thankfully, my knowledge of computers and software will mean that the initial task to up-and-running will take at most a couple of hours, but sorting out all my data and programs for reinstallation will take some time.
Update:
It turns out that my computer might have been be playing tricks with me, as everything went 'normally' through the startup procedure. I may reformat it anyway, just to make sure I get rid of any lurking gremlins.
(Edited to include update message)
Edited by - NewWay on 7 August 2002 20:34:19
