Could people be resurrected?

by sleepy 14 Replies latest jw friends

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  sleepy

  I want to look at the possiblity of whether people, at least in theory, could be resurrected.

  When I was a witness I could see a major problem with the concept of a resurrection,as understood by the society.Trouble is I found it hard to explain to people, and only others who had thought of it themselves seemed to understand.

  Basicly if a person dies, and you resurrect that person by copying all his parts exactly is that the same person coming back to life or, a new person with the same memories and feelings?Well to me its only the same person if they have continuity of existance.

  If there was to be a resurrection what is it exactly you resurrect?Just a resemblense of the body and brain? If it is a copy of that person, is it really that person or a clone?If you were to be cloned know would that clone be you?I would say no.

  In order for a resurrection to take place the same thing needs to happen to you as happens every time you wake up, you need to continue in existance.To have a person that has the same physical makeup is not the same, nor a person with the same personnality and memories, you need continued existance.Which raises alot of questions about what it means to exist.

  What happens when we sleep and wake up why do we feel continued existance from the day before?.Is it just the fact that we remember our history that makes us continue as the same being?Well what or who does the remembering?We are more than just our memories.When we remmeber someything we may say "I remember that" clearly our memories are somthing we posses it is not what we are.You of course can loose your memories , how does a person feel then?I don't know.

  If consciousness is just a function brain waves what actually causes it to be localised there?Couldn' t somone elses brian waves make me conscious?I am not conscious in anyone elses brain, each persons consciousness is linked only to them.

  So how do you ressurect a person or make him continue in existance?To clone him I think will not work, as it is just a copy, the fact that we feel a continued existance makes me think that if we understood enought about our brains and consciouness we could resurrect people and for them to actually be the same people not just copies who look feel and remember the same things.

  Edited by - sleepy on 10 August 2002 4:41:27
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  JosephMalik

  Sleepy said: Well to me its only the same person if they have continuity of existance.

  Sleepy,

  Is a person in a coma that same person when they come out of it? Are you the same person when you wake up after a long restful sleep. Is a person with a hangover the same person that was drinking the night before. The human body is constantly aging and changing. What makes you think such continuity has anything to do with existence? Where is your proof?

  On the subject of resurrection we should gather the facts. Just what is it that will be restored to life. Will it be the body that dies? The answer is No!

  1 Cor. 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

  Our Lord has no intention of gathering the molecules that make up our present human bodies and putting them back in their place. The only similarity that it will have to the original is that it will still be human as the seed was human. There is also no need to restore infirmities suffered in times past such as missing limbs or defects. Perhaps we can understand this better if we realized that the only significant difference between being resurrected or changed is time. Notice:

  1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

  Therefore not only will such ones be restored to life in a body quite different from the original but this human body will also be immortal.

  1 Cor.15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

  Sleepy said: What happens when we sleep and wake up why do we feel continued existance from the day before?.Is it just the fact that we remember our history that makes us continue as the same being? Well what or who does the remembering? We are more than just our memories. When we remmeber someything we may say "I remember that" clearly our memories are somthing we posses it is not what we are. You of course can loose your memories , how does a person feel then?I don't know.

  Restoring memory is all that is really required to make such immortal human beings whole once again. Yes, some will have to adjust to their new found circumstances and perhaps even learn some history but this is also true of anyone recovering from surgery or other complex medical procedure. Yet they will be the same person. This something that will permit our memory to be restored is called in scripture our spirit. This is the only thing that must be protected when we die.

  Psalms 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

  Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

  1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

  None of this should be a mystery to any disciple. This context driven word spirit seems to be a problem for some as they continually apply it to non-human beings but it has many uses in scripture including human ones such as mind and personality.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 9 August 2002 17:2:52

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 9 August 2002 18:0:37
• 

  thewiz

  i look at it this way

  first we had writng or painting or images, etc -so we could read/see the thoughts of an individual long since dead

  then we have pictures of people along with their writings who are now long since dead

  then we have recording devices to hear a person long since dead

  then we have moving images of people long since dead

  then moving images and voice of people long since dead

  i think you get the idea by now.

  each step is getting a little bit closer to bringing someone back and if the progrees keeps going who knows

  all for remembering reconstructing or, if you will, resurrecting.

  a/the quest for immortality.
• 

  sleepy

  Joseph

  Is a person in a coma that same person when they come out of it? Are you the same person when you wake up after a long restful sleep. Is a person with a hangover the same person that was drinking the night before. The human body is constantly aging and changing. What makes you think such continuity has anything to do with existence? Where is your proof?

  Depends what YOU mean by person.I am the same person when I wake up in the sense that i continue to be conscious.Were not talking body changes here, but how the conscious mind continues to exist.

  Restoring memory is all that is really required to make such immortal human beings whole once again

  Restoring memory to what?If I was able to make a copy of you now, and give it all your memories in what way would that be you, as you would continue to exist along with this other person who has the same memories.Do you see the problem?What or who memory is restored too is important.
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  LittleToe

  Of course the immortal soul doctrine covers that eventuality, Sleepy. When your body dies an invisible part of you, that perhaps never registered in this plane of existance, but was somehow inexplicably linked to that physical body, continues to live on.

  For that soul to be incorporated in a new Spiritual body, or another physical body, would just be a change of transport.

  It seems that the philosophy behind this one has been previously considered, albeit for a different age, with different terminology.
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  sleepy

  Yes I was going to bring up the idea of a "soul", but what that means is so open to question and I'm not sure that it exists in the biblical sense.And that stll leaves the queston of what a soul is.

  I suppose one thing I am trying to show is that the witness understanding of a resurrection and "soul" carnt be right or in line with the bible.A resurrection has to be more than a cloning, the origianl person has to continue to be conscious in the new body.For example if Jesus was transfered from heaven, what was transfered?It wasn't his body or his memories.If a person was raised to heaven what part of that person goes to heaven and makes him the same person?

  Even if you don't believe in the Bible or that man has a "soul"or a least the brain creates a "soul", its obvious that something strange happens when the brain opperates , that transends its physical parts and location.If at the moment we can clone people does that mean that in the future with futher understanding we could resurrect people?

  Surely if we can live in the first place we can live again.

  Edited by - sleepy on 10 August 2002 7:17:42
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  LittleToe

  The terminology is often the sticking point.

  Enoch was translated, too.
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  JosephMalik

  If I was able to make a copy of you now, and give it all your memories in what way would that be you, as you would continue to exist along with this other person who has the same memories.Do you see the problem?What or who memory is restored too is important.

  Sleepy,

  The only problem that I see is a compilation of stupid arguments that have no basis in scripture. We can use "if" all day long and come up with any number of impossible situations that if taken seriously can never be resolved logically because they are not logical to begin with. In this case the spirit in question cannot be shared. Your depiction if therefore not based upon logical, scriptural thought. Our memories and personality are important. Our bodies are not. It is that simple and there is no problem here as you try to imply.

  Joseph
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  LittleToe

  Seems this is a philosophical discussion, not a biblical debate, Joseph.

  What do you make of the term "translated"?
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  JosephMalik

  Little Toe,

  No, this guy specifically referred to scripture in his comments to others so he was casting doubt on the entire concept of resurrection. Now for translation as in Enoch?

  2 Samuel 3:10 To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.

  Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

  Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

  This is simply the act of moving from one place or situation to another without regard to the details. A tornado can do this as can forces unknown to us. In the case of the kingdom, such translation is possible by means of justification. The application of such justification bypasses the need for judgment which all others must face.

  Joseph