Jesus ... the greatest sacrifice?

by Simon 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • donkey
    donkey

    Let's look at what Christians regurgitate...and they think they are hot-stuff for being able to do it when the reality is all they show is how little they think about things. I will eliminate all the mindless scriptures they use.

    (1) God came to earth and became man, a servant who would spend His ministry as a pauper, knowing that He would go to an excruciating torture and death on the cross...voluntarily! He gave up His human life and took it up again within three days.

    Why did he have to go through "excruciating torture"? Even if I believe the Christian stuff about "ransom sacrifices" etc...NOWHERE does it say the death had to be painful. All your Bible tells us it was a match of one life for another. Secondly, if God is so smart and he knows everything then why did he create a situation in which the only outcome was for him or his son (if you are non-trinitarian) to die? Would you create an environment that created a risk where either yourself or a family member would lose their life if something hit the proverbial fan? Futhermore should we be grateful to some God who was "stupid" enough to set things up knowing (yes you guys claim he knows everything) that his "system" was so flawed that he had to risk his or his own son's life as part of the system? I mean who setup the rules to begin with?

    2) He is forever both God and man. His physical body was raised spiritual complete with the pierced side and nail holes.

    So what?

    3) He is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" which is one scripture that proves Satan did not pull any surprise on God. In fact, when one looks at the book of Job you can see that he is a 'leashed dog.' He can only go as far as he is permitted in his perpetration of evil. But I digress.

    Ahh, Satan!!! So God setup this system of suicidal risk and then he decided that wasn't bad enough - he allowed a rabid dog - the devil - to add to the risk of failure of his system? And then I should be grateful that his system failed and he had to die in accordance with his own rules? How stupid do you think I am? (please don't answer that)

    4) God Himself has taken the fall for our own fall and all who believe on His name will receive salvation, all who do not will choose damnation.

    No - if (a huge mother of an IF) this whole thing is true then God took his OWN fall because he created a system of risk to himself and/or Jesus. He knew that if mankind failed then he would have to die (although we still haven't figured out why it had to be in such a grotesque way). Mankind had nothing to do with the setup of the whole game...he was just a simple pawn that would succeed or fail and God knew the risk of man's failure AHEAD of time. He made up the rules to the game. Any logical person would and should ask - why did he have to make up such silly rules?

    It is hard to imagine someone as irresponsible as God seems to be in the whole setup of the game. If someone in todays world knowingly endangers the life of their child - then that person is a sicko and faces the full onslaught of justice!!! God knowingly endangered the life of his son - and then he made the danger exist by setting up the rules in the first place.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Good points donkey!

    I have felt this way even when I was a JW. You, or I, or anyone who had the power to have an idea go perfect, yet knew it would fail, and did it anyway, is a dumbshit.

    Some say....".look at it from God's viewpoint, or the overall picture" Yeah.....OK I will....I just did........overall picture says God allowed billions of deaths over one mans mistake. Gee, now it makes sense!

  • thepreacher
    thepreacher

    Hi donkey, you said:

    Let's look at what Christians regurgitate...and they think they are hot-stuff for being able to do it when the reality is all they show is how little they think about things. I will eliminate all the mindless scriptures they use.

    Aside from the wide expanse of generalization, where is your argument in this paragraph?

    My original comment: ((1) God came to earth and became man, a servant who would spend His ministry as a pauper, knowing that He would go to an excruciating torture and death on the cross...voluntarily! He gave up His human life and took it up again within three days. Why did he have to go through "excruciating torture"? )

    Another burp here:

    Even if I believe the Christian stuff about "ransom sacrifices" etc...NOWHERE does it say the death had to be painful. All your Bible tells us it was a match of one life for another. Secondly, if God is so smart and he knows everything then why did he create a situation in which the only outcome was for him or his son (if you are non-trinitarian) to die?

    Isaiah 53 is one of the prophecies that apply to the 'suffering servant' of the first advent, one of about 259 specific prophecies fullfilled by Jesus during His lifetime, BTW, if He only fullfilled only about a dozen of those the odds against it would be about the same as if you filled Texas with silver dollars, (the newest ones or Susan B. Anthony, whichever you like!) and had one out there with two sides the same, then went out and found it on the first try! BTW, it doesn't matter what you THINK of God's methods one bit. Since the evidence for the advent and resurrection is overwhelming, it PROVES that Jesus was who HE claimed to be (God incarnate).

    Would you create an environment that created a risk where either yourself or a family member would lose their life if something hit the proverbial fan? Futhermore should we be grateful to some God who was "stupid" enough to set things up knowing (yes you guys claim he knows everything) that his "system" was so flawed that he had to risk his or his own son's life as part of the system? I mean who setup the rules to begin with?

    This is another irrelevant point and mere empty rhetoric. The proof is in the historicity of the events, the odds against the events happening randomly, the proof of prayer in one's life on a personal level.

    My previous point:

    2) He is forever both God and man. His physical body was raised spiritual complete with the pierced side and nail holes. So what? 3) He is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" which is one scripture that proves Satan did not pull any surprise on God. In fact, when one looks at the book of Job you can see that he is a 'leashed dog.' He can only go as far as he is permitted in his perpetration of evil. But I digress.

    This time a true belch:

    Ahh, Satan!!! So God setup this system of suicidal risk and then he decided that wasn't bad enough - he allowed a rabid dog - the devil - to add to the risk of failure of his system? And then I should be grateful that his system failed and he had to die in accordance with his own rules?

    What risk? He is sovereign, He is in ultimate control, He provided for the salvation of any and all who believe, regardless of how or when they die.

    How stupid do you think I am?

    After this post you may be able to figure that out for yourself!

    4) God Himself has taken the fall for our own fall and all who believe on His name will receive salvation, all who do not will choose damnation.

    No - if (a huge mother of an IF) this whole thing is true then God took his OWN fall because he created a system of risk to himself and/or Jesus. He knew that if mankind failed then he would have to die (although we still haven't figured out why it had to be in such a grotesque way). Mankind had nothing to do with the setup of the whole game...he was just a simple pawn that would succeed or fail and God knew the risk of man's failure AHEAD of time. He made up the rules to the game. Any logical person would and should ask - why did he have to make up such silly rules? It is hard to imagine someone as irresponsible as God seems to be in the whole setup of the game. If someone in todays world knowingly endangers the life of their child - then that person is a sicko and faces the full onslaught of justice!!! God knowingly endangered the life of his son - and then he made the danger exist by setting up the rules in the first place.

    This is really getting tedious. You haven't lost that old JW training of pompous rhetoric and changing subjects. Your whole tirade is a moot point since the proof is in the events themselves. Does a fruit fly ask a scientist why he sets up rules for the fly to live by? Your are one among billions that have come and gone, yet God Himself is giving you a eternity saving opportunity that you seem destined to toss away with disdain and arrogance. Do you want to be a witty character here and that is your goal in life? No one will remember you on this forum a year from now if you were to vanish...yet God knows you and has a plan to redeem you, just by knowing Him personally and accepting His free gift!

    Here is another comment, this time from the next poster.

    Good points donkey! I have felt this way even when I was a JW. You, or I, or anyone who had the power to have an idea go perfect, yet knew it would fail, and did it anyway, is a dumbshit. Some say....".look at it from God's viewpoint, or the overall picture" Yeah.....OK I will....I just did........overall picture says God allowed billions of deaths over one mans mistake. Gee, now it makes sense! Gumby

    As a JW, you actually have no concept that we do not live in reality, being in this physical realm. We are made for living eternally and indeed, our souls do just that! You have fallen for the lie of anhilation and naturalism, against you whole being that cries out for life everlasting. You rail against the established facts that death is the end of this life. You have your days determined by God yet mock Him and refuse to even investigate the possibility that pipsqueak man has NO CLUE.

    The Preacher

    Edited by - thepreacher on 14 November 2002 19:2:12

  • Valis
    Valis

    Now I remember...you're the dimwit who went from JW to Baptist preacher...how terribly boring for you. I'm really not sure what your current version of religion has to do w/JWland except to say that not all XJWs do so well after leaving, in fact even worse! BTW, conversion efforts here are not welcome, even if they are disguised as rebuttals to those who don't believe in your dusty and outmoded religion. Be a preacher somewhere else and maybe explain more (for those who don't know you in your previous XJW or JW "glory") of your experience w/the borg. Much more interesting than an effort to convert to your current delusion.

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • crownboy
    crownboy

    SixofNine said:

    I remember how, come memorial time every year, I'd find myself frustratedly trying to muster up some deep emotion that I thought the story of Jesus "sacrifice" was supposed to, "should", make me feel. Inevitably, my thoughts would turn in the direction of your post, Simon, ie: "what was the big deal?" and, "even if it is a big deal, why settle for this solution, God?"

    I'd have to simply turn my thoughts off, so as to not feel like I was being ingrateful.

    I had similiar experiences too, Six. Maybe some of us just aren't meant to be believers .

    Good topic, Simon.

  • donkey
    donkey

    It takes a donkey to show you that Preacher is a true ASS.

  • gumby
    gumby

    You have fallen for the lie of anhilation and naturalism, against you whole being that cries out for life everlasting

    Don't put what you THINK my thoughts are on this board....what I've FALLEN FOR. What proof do you have that what you believe is not a lie?

    I do not mock our true creator. I mock the God you christians make up that offers us life if we would believe something with holes all thru it......that being the Bible.

    BTW....did you know that a Baptist cannot hold a position in the church if he ....drinks? They also frown on dancing and music other than Christian music. Does this ring any bells for you? Is this a reminder...or not... of the CONTROL religion has on people.....including you?

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