"Witnesses Now For Jesus" convention ...

by borgfree 101 Replies latest jw friends

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    I think like Valis on this point...all I see is another flavor of dog doo. But, if it is your THANG, do what you wanna dooo.

    Also, If I could elaborate on a great Valis phrase above (see the emboldened below), I would focus it more like this:

    "I also think think that [false] Christianity has always fostered the notion of exclusivity not based on any kind of real scholarship or thought after examining the merits of different belief, but by some delusional notion that they have a lock on the right representation of Dog."

  • DJ
    DJ

    I may be wrong but I think that the speaker causing this discrepancy is only going to teach that Christ is the only way. If that is exclusivity then Jesus is an exclusive being. I think that was Jesus's message. Either your'e with Christ or your not....and that is what Christianity is......even though it may be politically incorrect. HE taught us that no matter how many good deeds we may perform it is useless with out his loving spirit.

    If Valis's point is valid and this guy has some private agenda unfamiliar to Christianity, so be it. His hiney is covered under the 1st ammendment as well. However, I don't think that is the case because Joan Cetnar is no fool. If for some outlandish reason, this guy proves to be a nut case then he won't be listened to by the majority of the folks in attendance. They would walk out on him. The entire convention does not hinge on one person. I am convinced that Joan knows her stuff and wouldn't allow a nut case to speak. dj

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    This is TRUE Christianity:

    John 15:16
    You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit-fruit that will last.

    So unless you are chosen by Christ, no one is "Christian."

    And the chosen sons of God won't have their identities revealed until the end:

    Rom 8:19
    19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

  • borgfree
    borgfree
    John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
    John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
    John 6:54 - he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Borgfree

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    Yes, exactly, speaking of the chosen and they JUSTIFIABLY would do all those things.

    Then, there will also be those that do those things UNJUSTIFIABLY. I like to call them Lord Lorders...

    So how does one know who TRULY is God's chosen?

    Rom 8:19
    The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

    When God chooses to reveal them, how will he reveal them?

    Matt 25:31-33
    "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep (CHOSEN) from the goats (UNCHOSEN). 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


    typo

    Edited by - pomegranate on 28 August 2002 18:28:20

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Yes, exactly, speaking of the chosen and they JUSTIFIABLY would do all those things.

    Then, there will also be those that do those things UNJUSTIFIABLY. I like to call them Lord Lorders...

    You seem to be advancing the idea that there will be some big mystery about who will be saved, and that faith has little to do with it. Also, that it will be impossible until the very end to have even a clue about who God's people really are. You have built this argument by taking a few verses out of context. The scriptures do not support such a conclusion.

    At Romans 8:19, which you are wresting away from its context, Paul is not talking about some future revelation of who the sons of God are. A simple reading of the surrounding verses shows that he is describing the glory that will be revealed in the sons of God at the last day. If you read the entire chapter, you will see that he is firmly convinced that both he and his readers are among the sons of God, and that their salvation is an accomplished fact.

    Jesus' remarks at John 8:15 are given in the context of a dissertation in which he encouraged them to practice love and obedience in their new status as his friends (as opposed to servants). He had chosen them as his friends and for specific areas of service to God. Nothing in the context implies that they had no choice about their own salvation.

    Likewise, you are reading your own ideas into the scripture at Matthew 25 about some being taken and others left at Jesus' return. Nowhere in that text does Jesus imply that it will be impossible prior to his return to know who his people are; only that his people will be taken to be with him and those who are not his people will not.

    There is one sense in which it is impossible to know for sure who God's people are, though, and Jesus illustrated that in the parable of the wheat and the weeds. There are false Christians, i.e. people who are "playing church" and have no real relationship with God, as well as cults, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and others, who claim to be Christian but are not. But the fact that some who claim to be Christians are not, does not mean that we can have no idea who the real Christians are. It may be difficult at times to tell the weeds from the wheat, but we'll have no difficulty in separating both from the corn.

    Edited by - NeonMadman on 29 August 2002 9:23:58

  • Joyzabel
    Joyzabel

    Now, how many people are going to be there?

    <getting out pencil and paper to add up more people I can meet from this board> to Valis, see you there

  • detective
    detective
    Either your'e with Christ or your not....and that is what Christianity is......even though it may be politically incorrect. HE taught us that no matter how many good deeds we may perform it is useless with out his loving spirit.

    Well, actually...
    He MAY have taught his apostles that. And they MAY have carried that teaching orally from person to person. And they MAY have written it down personally or someone they told that to MAY have written it down for them. And those written words MAY have been re-copied accurately again and again. And after several sets of writings were gathered together and bound into an anthology, they MAY have translated it accurately...etc.

    I'm just being too literal, I suppose.

    But I'm thinking that whether or not someone believes in Jesus' loving spirit, I'd still like to think that they may go out and do a few good deeds regardless. Perhaps those good deeds are meaningless to some if they aren't attributed to jesus but I just don't see it that way myself.

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    >>You seem to be advancing the idea that there will be some big mystery about who will be saved, and that faith has little to do with it. Also, that it will be impossible until the very end to have even a clue about who God's people really are. You have built this argument by taking a few verses out of context. The scriptures do not support such a conclusion.<<

    There is ONLY ONE, that will seperate sheep from goat and weed from wheat. That truth is plain. Those that are truly sheep are revealed when the Son of Man sits on his throne and HE SEPERATES what He deems Good and what He deems bad by HIS standard of judgment.

    Are you saying you know who is a sheep and a goat before Christ seperates them? Then there would be no need for a seperating work by Christ.

    The sheep will be revealed in the end. The wheat will be revealed in the end. The sons of God will be revealed in the end.

    That is ALL IN CONTEXT friend.

    >>At Romans 8:19, which you are wresting away from its context, Paul is not talking about some future revelation of who the sons of God are. A simple reading of the surrounding verses shows that he is describing the glory that will be revealed in the sons of God at the last day. If you read the entire chapter, you will see that he is firmly convinced that both he and his readers are among the sons of God, and that their salvation is an accomplished fact.<<

    Christ REVEALS by SEPERATING the "good" from the "bad." No one else can do that. No man can seperate HIMSELF either. No one else knows who truly is a sheep except Christ. If the true sheep/wheat are unknown UNTIL they are seperated OUT IN THE END, so are the sons of God veiled until they are revealed. The sons of God are the sheep, the wheat and the good that Christ has judged WORTHY.

    >>Jesus' remarks at John 8:15 are given in the context of a dissertation in which he encouraged them to practice love and obedience in their new status as his friends (as opposed to servants). He had chosen them as his friends and for specific areas of service to God. Nothing in the context implies that they had no choice about their own salvation.

    There is the POINT. He chose them as sheep IN PERSON. Those early first fruit sheep knew FIRST HAND by being chosen IN PERSON by Christ. Now that the good shepherd is invisible, so are the indentities of who the true sheep are. Until he comes back IN PERSON to gather up ALL OF HIS OWN, then they will be revealed exactly who they are.

    >>Likewise, you are reading your own ideas into the scripture at Matthew 25 about some being taken and others left at Jesus' return. Nowhere in that text does Jesus imply that it will be impossible prior to his return to know who his people are; only that his people will be taken to be with him and those who are not his people will not.<<

    It's called CHOSEN. Go read the parable of the wheat and the weeds. The DIFFERENCE between them GOOD AND BAD, SHEEP AND GOAT, WHEAT AND WEED, CHOSEN AND UNCHOSEN, would NOT be discerned and REVEALED UNTIL THE END OF THE HARVEST. So you are bluntly WRONG.

    Jesus will reveal who was truly HIS when the end shall come, and not one second before.

    Any man coming to you saying he is saved and chosen is talking through his buttocks and looking to start his own religion.

    Edited by - pomegranate on 29 August 2002 14:58:11

  • borgfree
    borgfree
    Pomegranate, you say,

    Any man coming to you saying he is saved and chosen is talking through his buttocks and looking to start his own religion.note the following scriptures

    John 6:40
    For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
    John 10 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [1] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
    John 1:12
    Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God


    John 3:18
    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[
    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
    John 5:24
    "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
    John 11 24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
    25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
    John 20 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may [1] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    These scriptures and others make it plain that eternal life is a free gift from our Lord and we only have to accept the gift by believing in Jesus Christ, really believing, not just pretend believing.

    You say: "looking to start his own religion."

    All of the major protestant,mainstream, religions that I know of, teach that if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you have everlasting life. By claiming the things you are stating in your posts aren't you teaching a different gospel? and in effect, looking to start your own religion?

    Borgfree

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