"Witnesses Now For Jesus" convention ... (page 5)

borgfree

Pomegranate,

You stated this in an earlier post and I did not respond to it:

James 2:19
Even the demons believe that-and shudder.

I think you misused the scripture. As you can see below, the writer was talking about faith producing deeds or works, he was saying that even the demons believed there is a God, but, that is a totally different thing than believing in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and having faith in Him to grant you eternal life. The demons can have no such hope.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
19 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless [4] ? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Borgfree

pomegranate

I think you misused the scripture. As you can see below, the writer was talking about faith producing deeds or works, he was saying that even the demons believed there is a God, but, that is a totally different thing than believing in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and having faith in Him to grant you eternal life. The demons can have no such hope.

I believe it was used quite correctly. The point this scripture is showing (by one seemingly spurious and out of context statement) is that BELIEF is not a determining FACTOR for a man's salvation, it is the FAITH/WORKS symbiosis. Even the demons BELIEVE and it isn't a demon believing that will save them. Believing is not a determing factor, because the demons do believe.

What makes TRUE BELIEF different is a belief by way of FAITH. WHY?

Because TRUE FAITH is given out from God so man can TRULY BELIEVE as to God and Jesus Christ.

I believe it goes like this:

God first gives out faith to a man which has a symbionic relationship with good works (of mercy)
Which causes a man to truly believe.

It's all about faith and faith is all God given.

borgfree

Pomegranate,

I have read your last post carefully. Unless I missed something, somewhere in the post, I really do not find anything I would disagree with.

Borgfree

pomegranate

Jude 2
Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

RR

ugh, I went to one of those .... it was everything I knew it would be a WHINEFEST for xjws' People sitting around and crying "woe is me" "look at what teh Society did to me, boo hoo hoo."

And then you walked into the lobby and everyone and their mothers are selling books on the Witnesses.

ozziepost

People sitting around and crying "woe is me" "look at what teh Society did to me, boo hoo hoo."

I take your point, RR. There comes a point when it's time "to move on with our lives". So often we are stuck in a time-warp of looking back on the dub days. Instead, how much better to look forward. Where are we heading in life?

I've personally found that attending non-denominational Christian conventions to be very edifying. Here in New South Wales we have regular conventions at Katoomba in the Blue Mountains.

http://www.kcc.org.au/

Literally thousands attend from all walks and churches, etc. Scores of ex-cultists like us are drwan there too. But never a mention about what was in the past, but rather learning about the Bible itself and singing Christian songs. That, to me, is much more positive.

Cheers, Ozzie

borgfree

RR,

I agree that we all need to go on with our lives, but, there are always new ones who are fresh out of the WT, who will be at the conventions. They will, of course, be very hurt, and their "wounds" will be fresh. The ones who have been out for a few years are there for comfort and support for these new ones just out.

Also, you grow to really care about those you have met at the conventions and look forward to seeing them again.

There are usually book tables where the ministries offer a big variety of books, etc. When I was just leaving the WT, I wanted all of the information I could get my hands on, that information helped me assure myself that I had made the right decision, and, I became much stronger in my convictions. I was then equipped to help others with the knowledge I had gained.

Borgfree

RR

Borgfree, when I was at the "Witnesses for Jesus Now" convention. I personally thought it was a joke.

There were no discussions about Jesus or spiritual therapy, It was ALL "The Society this, the Society that." The biggest slap in the face was the athiest who was leading the audience in a vesper service. Imagine that, and athiest of all people leading the audience in singing praises to a God and Savior he didn't even believe in.

I understand wanting to help others, I do it too on occassions. But I believe these people have become a caricature of themselves.

I met a gentlemen who had been DF'd some thirty years ago, you'd think it was just last week. All that bitterness eating him up, it ruined his life.

RR

borgfree

RR,

My first year at the convention was completely different from what you describe. Erick Grieshaber gave a very special talk about Jesus, what He had done for us etc. I would have never thought I would go to the alter in front of several hundred people and say "the sinners prayer" giving my life to Jesus, but I did.

I have gone every year since, this will be my 10th year. Joan would never consider letting a non-believer direct worship or anything like that. I can't imagine why you had that experience, but, I can assure you it is not that way now.

Most of the talks are spiritual, of course there are always comments about our former lives in the WT, what the latest WT happenings are, etc, but, I would say about 90 % of the program is Christ/spiritually oriented.

You should give it another try.

Borgfree

NeonMadman

Pomegranate:

You are obviously a skilled deceiver. I suspect that you learned your skills from Jehovah's Witnesses, who are masters of deception. Only someone being deliberately deceitful would have quoted Rom 8:24-25 in the way that you did:

My Bible says this:
Rom 8:24-25
Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

I have hope. You already have eternal life do you?

You deliberately took this scripture out of context. I say "deliberately", because no honest reading of the scripture would have allowed you to quote the verse and yet leave out the first half of verse 24. Here's what the CONTEXT says:

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

The first half of verse 24, which you deceitfully omitted in your quotation, says "in this hope we were saved." "WE WERE SAVED". Past tense. Accomplished fact. But it doesn't fit your pet theory, so you left it out.

Verse 23 demonstrates clearly that it is the actual adoption along with the redemption of the bodies that these already saved persons are awaiting. This harmonizes well with verses 18 and 19, which show that the "revealing of the sons of God" refers to their glory that will be revealed along with Christ, not to their identity.

Clearly, you are far more interested in promoting your pet theories than in extracting truth from the word of God. So much so, that you are willing to resort to outright deception in deliberately taking verses out of their context to support your ideas. I urge you to repent of such wickedness.

Edited by - NeonMadman on 30 August 2002 12:34:16

"Witnesses Now For Jesus" convention ...

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