conoro -
I agree with your post but I must admit that I have seen some bespoke suits on some of the flash CO and DOs. Not very common though, and they were obviously taking advantage of some generous family.
Watchtower Reformation's Grand Climax
by Derrick 19 Replies latest jw friends
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gumby
Conanburst:... If there are "billions of dollars" puring into Brooklyn, whats being done with it all, i have met members of the GB, and the UK Branch Commitee, I didnt see any Ferraris, Rolex watches or Bespoke suits, deluded though they may be, they are power freaks not monetarily greedy.
I don't recall ANYWHERE in derricks post where he insinuated individuals were getting rich and living the high life. It is plain in his post he was talking about the monetary value the entire organisation has. We all know the old farts live modest lives.
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RR
Derrick,
Nice post. Being a Bible Student, and having worked at the DAWN offices, I have always found the Society's attitude towards BIble Students quite baffling.
Keep in mind that for years the Society denied ever making any references to BIble Stuents, never wanting to acknowledge they still existed. In fact, they often told their followers that we didn't exist anymore, that we all died out.
But in recent years, the internet has changed all that! And Bible Students like the DAWN are making thir presence known.
It should be noted that THE DAWN, were formed in 1932 under the name Dawn Publishers, Inc. and when they reloacted to New Jersey they reorganized under it's current name. They too, use to be right around the corner from the Society until the 1940s.
However, the four directors who were illegally ousted by the Judge in 1917 formed the Pastoral Bible Instute, Inc., in 1918, also in Brooklyn [now in California] began publishing THE HERALD OF CHRIST'S KINGDOM, wghich is still being published.
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abbagail
LOL @ Derrick re: the black lights! I remember those from high school. My brother had one in his bedroom. It was soooo kewl! Good analogy re: new light v. black light.
As far as the future GB being anointed attorneys, I was basically joking, even though it seems they are becoming more and more legalistic as time goes by (even though the baptismal vow change in the mid-80s was my first "big clue" as to how they are using legal advisors to cover their "spiritual" A**'s).
As far as God using "worldly attorneys" to bring down the WT's criminal deeds, I'm all for that! As the saying goes, "It takes one to know one," and/or "Fight Fire With Fire." So may the best "den" of attorneys win!
Grits
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Farkel
gumby,
: Conanburst:... If there are "billions of dollars" puring into Brooklyn, whats being done with it all, i have met members of the GB, and the UK Branch Commitee, I didnt see any Ferraris, Rolex watches or Bespoke suits, deluded though they may be, they are power freaks not monetarily greedy.
Unfortunately, you have made a logical fallacy: you have created a strawman argument. Just because lots of money is coming into the WTS doesn't mean that it logically follows that individuals are benefiting from it. Rick never made that argument, anyway.
He has been questioned on his using the term "billions pouring" into Brooklyn. Would you challenge that at least over the years, a total of "billions" has NOT poured into Brooklyn?
I remember at least in one year the society received over 700 million in revenues. This does not count interest on KH loans, nor does it include estates that the society benefits from. Whether the number is "billions" annually or "hundreds of millions" annually is moot, IMHO.
Look, I've picked on Rick probably more than anyone else. Yet I don't like to see attempts to devalue his excellent information over a statement that cannot be proven one way or the other. No one I know knows just exactly how much the society takes in. Since they give NOTHING back to those who contribute except LOANS of that same donated money at a modest interest rate, and they spend the rest building their empire of monuments to themselves, I think it is fair to say they are hauling in a bunch of money. More importantly, their hard assets in properties MUST be in the billions. Patterson alone is valued at over $400,000,000.
Farkel
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conoroberst
Farkel - The Poster wrote "Billions of dollars a year. Can you conceive this number? That is the revenue of the Watchtower corporations"
However as you rightly pointed out a number of years, the WTS may well have that level of revenue, although i would doubt it. In addition Revenue does not equal profit, nor capital. If individuals do not individually benefit from the supposed or insinuated "fleecing of the flock" whats the point of it? What possible motive or incentive does the corporate body of the WTS have?
On the subject of the WTS revenue, are the accounts of the Corporation available publicly in the US, one shuold be able to obtain information from the Charities Commission/Companies House for the UK activities.
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Derrick
If there are "billions of dollars" puring into Brooklyn, whats being done with it all, i have met members of the GB, and the UK Branch Commitee, I didnt see any Ferraris, Rolex watches or Bespoke suits, deluded though they may be, they are power freaks not monetarily greedy.
If you do the math, it costs billions per year to maintain approximately 100,000 Kingdom Halls. One regional disaster can cost a small fortune. High maintenance costs are incurred for the lavish facilities at Patterson. Not to mention the high tech facilities occupying a large portion of Brooklyn, with underground annexes and facilities so extensive that many without high security clearances are unaware of the true extent. Add to your spreadsheet the many thousands of Circuit and District Overseers who are in part supported. In today's dollars, billions is not the same as billions even ten or twenty years ago, due to the subtle but powerful erosion of the dollar. Many billions per year are required for an empire of this vast extent. Before dismissing this fact, do the math. An organization of 6 million is 30 times the size of Microsoft.
Any corporation with 6 million members will produce a revenue stream of 6 billion per year if you average $1,000 per member, simple math. Many members donate their entire estates to the Watchtower Society, and many in my own congregation tithe what amounts to the equivalent of over 10 percent of their incomes each month. (In Silicon Valley the average income is $75,000 per year, and over 10 percent of the average income is a lot of moola.)
I would make an educated guess that worldwide donations per year alone average $1,000 per baptized publisher (or $6 billion per year). Imagine if the true figure was 2-3 times that estimate? Yet many church goers often tithe several times this amount per year, and $1,000 per year per person to attend any church is a truly "lean" contribution for any religion. Still, the sheer number of baptized publishers alone take a mere $1,000 donation per congregation member yearly, and parlays that into a rather remarkable $6 billion when averaged amongst 6,000,000 baptized publishers (and I'm not including another 6 million "inactive" and "stragglers" who attend sporadically or attend only the Memorial yearly who might make exceptionally large contributions to make-up for lack of attendance).
Your point that the GB do not indulge in Rolex watches and other luxuries like the clergy of Christendom is a good one. It shows that albeit misguided in many teachings and policies they claim emulate the first century Christian congregation, their hearts are sincere in wanting to please Jehovah God. I have always believed that they will be spared destruction at Armageddon because God does not execute someone for believing the wrong things. (Ironically they claim God does destroy those "without accurate knowledge," and will one day experience the very mercy they claimed others would be denied.)
By the way, a few years ago financial statements were posted on H2O that showed a revenue stream in the billions of dollars for the Watchtower and its corporations. This information was revealed publicly due to the Freedom of Information Act and the requirement to disclose balance sheets and income tax statements as a majority shareholder of a certain defense contract company that was donated to the Society as part of someone's estate. I can't remember all the particulars but suffice it to say that there are literally BILLIONS going into the Society EACH YEAR and not over a period of years.
As I said earlier in this post, simply multiple the number of publishers by $1,000 of donations per publisher a year (as a mean average donation, although some estimate the average is closer to $2-3 thousand a year per baptized person).
Farkel, I appreciate your comments and wonder if you recall those balance sheets posted on H2O that were disclosed due to majority ownership in a defense contractor corporation that was willed (as part of an estate) by one of Jehovah's Witnesses? I distinctly remember verifying that information disclosed on some government site that lists majority shareholders for defense contractors (and the larger issue on H2O debated was whether the Watchtower Society had an obligation to divest itself of such bequeathed holdings?).
Derrick
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Derrick
Addendum to last post:
The billions in donations I mentioned are a small part of overall revenues derived from an empire of real estate holdings, growing fortune in estates willed to the Society by JWs who die each year, dividends in stocks held in many corporations, returns from bonds and cash holdings, payments on Kingdom Hall leases and loans (i.e., such as interest, which of course the Bible encouraged the Apostles to charge the early Christian congregations for use of the vast real estate empire they held and leased to their brothers - for those scratching their heads, the truth was actually quite the opposite, but is my side point taken?).
Derrick
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Farkel
: On the subject of the WTS revenue, are the accounts of the Corporation available publicly in the US,
No, they are not. Billions of dollars is not much these days, and the Watchtower organization is very wealthy for a religion of its size.
As far as I'm still concerned making a big deal about the exact annual income has in fact derailed the rest of the information Derrick presented, and if it persists, it could be accused that it was nothing more than a thread hijacking.
Farkel
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Derrick
Farkel,
I agree that the other information I presented is more relevant than the Watchtower revenues. Thanks for keeping my topic "on topic"!
Derrick