So Should Germany Be Dictating Terms?

by Englishman 75 Replies latest jw friends

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  Englishman

  BERLIN Germany has told the United States it will withhold evidence against Sept. 11 conspiracy defendant Zacarias Moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, Germany's justice minister said in remarks released Saturday.

  Just seen this on the news. I know that European countries won't extradite anyone to the US if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow. Does witholding valuable information on a point of principle come under the same set of rules here?

  What do you think? Is this a noble stance that Germany is taking, or is it downright foolishness?

  Still forming my own view, I'd be glad to hear the opinions of others.

  What do you reckon, can we debate this one in an adult fashion and keep it friendly?

  Englishman.
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  Yerusalyim

  I say if Germany wants to do this then we convict him to life in prison without parole and let the GERMAN GOVERNMENT pay for it. Funny, they weren't so against the death penalty when fighting the Badder Meinhof gang and would shoot to kill rather than bother taking their own terrorists to prison.
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  Englishman

  I tend to agree, my concern is that evidence held by Germany about this fella will probably also contain links to other terrorists too.These could well be the people who will take a swipe at a European city next.

  Englishman.
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  Amazing

  Hi E-Man: The German authorities are using the EU laws to technically make a point. Moussouai has already "plead guilty" several times over and above the Judge's efforts to get him to plead not guilty. There is already enough evidence to convict and execute him. So, giving the USA intelligence information will make no difference.

  The USA normally spends so much time hand-wringing over executing we might as well not have the death penalty. The appeals, stays of execution, and last minute efforst to save these people will allow them to grow to old men before they ever face the death penalty. A recent exception to this was Timorthy McVeigh. Even he wanted to die - proudly declaring and standing by his actions, but our touchy-feely anti-death penalty politicians tried to stop it.

  Germany should just give it up, and make their point another day. Or better yet, the USA needs to send in the military and simply take the information.

  Yeru: You make an excellent point. Any nation that outlaws the death penalty must also disarm its police and dissolve its military ... for shooting people in acts of crime or war is an automatic death penalty without even a fair trial! Otherwise, any such anti-death penalty rules are shear hypocrisy!

  Edited by - Amazing on 1 September 2002 12:23:7
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  Englishman

  Amazing,

  Agreed again, (bar dissolving the military, though I agree on the police bit) I just can't see what the point is that Germany is trying to make here. Are you saying that Germany is just trying to cause embarrassment over the US stance on capital punishment?

  Englishman.

  Edited by - Englishman on 1 September 2002 12:26:8
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  fodeja

  Well, I'm very skeptical. It doesn't seem to be the right opportunity to make a point against the death penalty.

  OTOH: whenever it comes to law enforcement on US citizens abroad, the US government wants to dictate the terms (ranging from the usual "human rights concerns" to direct military threats). So it's not like the Germans are setting a precedent here. They're just acting the way the US has been acting for many decades.

  f.
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  Amazing

  E-man: Yes, Germany is trying to raise the death penalty issue in a way that gets the USA to think about compromising ... and rasing an embarassing specter, so that the American public might pressure its politicians into looking at outlawing it again. Also, I believe that the Germans in some way are trying to look more righteous today to offset their historical connections to Hitler, and their obvious connection to concentration camps.

  While I am pro-death penalty, there are admitted problems with its implementation. The most valid is the chance that the convicted might be innocent. But, in cases where the evidence is overwhelming, and the convicted admits the crime, such as McVeigh, then I see no point in keeping them in prison.

  As for the Islamic Al-Quada radicals ... like the renown anti-death penalty advocate and talk show host, Geraldo Rivera says, Kill'em! Yes, after traveling to Afghanistan as a news correspondent, good old life-long liberal Rivera turned immediately conservative - hard reality tends to do that.
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  fodeja

  Also, I believe that the Germans in some way are trying to look more righteous today to offset their historical connections to Hitler, and their obvious connection to concentration camps.

  Uhm, sure, yes. And the Americans are trying to look more righteous today to offset their historical connections to (insert any historical genocide or war crime committed by Americans here).

  Are you trying to discuss an issue, or just trying to provoke? That's not being "conservative", that's being stupid.

  f.
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  Amazing

  Hi Fodeja:

  OTOH: whenever it comes to law enforcement on US citizens abroad, the US government wants to dictate the terms (ranging from the usual "human rights concerns" to direct military threats). So it's not like the Germans are setting a precedent here. They're just acting the way the US has been acting for many decades.

  True. Germany is doing nothing new. I agree with you that thier timing is wrong. However, when the USA objects regarding its citizens, normally it is not when an American abroad is going to be executed, because either the foreign nation does not prtactice the death penalty, or if they do the crime deserved the execution. When the USA objects, it is because the crime is lower level, such as carrying some pot, and the foreign nation does other worse things like torture, beating the shit out of Americans with steel whips that have razor barbs. e.g. Indonesian situation. Neat stuff like that.
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  Amazing

  Fodeja:

  Are you trying to discuss an issue, or just trying to provoke? That's not being "conservative", that's being stupid.

  I am discussing an issue, giving an opinion with some humor ... using the intended humor icon repeatedly ... you are the one who suggested provocation with s superiority-attitude position.