The Earth Summit/USA/ a 'Christian' Democracy?

by Celtic 27 Replies latest jw friends

  • Celtic
    Celtic

    Note to Megadude.

    Where you get your answers I just do not know. I do work at a local charity and have been working in the field for quite some time now. I am NOT on any form of state benefits whatsoever.

    BTW rather than taking the question so personally, and then formulating such a daft response, consider first that the question raised IS NOT pointing the finger, rather it was/is just a question, nothing more, nothing less. Or are we not allowed to ask questions of this type anymore?

    Celtic Mark - Cornwall UK

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    EXTRABRIT,

    Finally, an issue we agree upon WOOOHOOOO!

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Celtic did indeed ask the question, I didn't see any bashing here just for the sake of it.

    I do wonder meself if Bush wouldn't have done well in actually attending this latest meeting re the environment. No doubt the UK will be 100% behind any US led war against Iraq, but it will be thrown in our faces that we are supporting a nation that doesn't want to make any compromises on environmental issues.

    Englishman.

  • MegaDude
    MegaDude

    Celtic,

    I got my answers from your frequent verbal meanderings in chat and on the board. But who knows the truthfulness of what BS you were spouting if you were on one of your frequent nutter emotional cycles.

    Of course you are entitled to ask any question in any way you wish. Am I not entitled to do the same? Sheesh.

  • gsx1138
    gsx1138

    One way the U.S. could avoid all the finger waving is to not tell other countries what to practice and what to believe. As far as environmental concerns, we suck. But guess what? So does everyone else. Sure we could improve but I think that the cost to technological advance would be to great. I have to go with Xander on this, our saving grace will be science. The Earth has survived far worse than us. Even if we killed every person on earth in a nuclear holocaust it would heal itself and a new species would take over.

    I share the George Carlin view. People who wave the flag of environmental conscience only care about themselves but they like to disguise it as giving a shit about everyone else. Each person has to be willing to want to recycle. The burden is on the individual and not just entire governments.

  • Shutterbug
    Shutterbug

    BTW rather than taking the question so personally, and then formulating such a daft response, consider first that the question raised IS NOT pointing the finger, rather it was/is just a question, nothing more, nothing less. Or are we not allowed to ask questions of this type anymore?

    Mark,

    No. 1, Megadudes answer was not "daft". It was well thought out and apparently you are unable to address the points he made.

    No. 2, Of course you are allowed to ask questions, but Megadude is allowed to address those questions, rather you agree with him or not.

    No.3, You mentioned the oil industry. I've made my living from that oil industry my entire life and I can hardly be considered rich. In short the industry creates thousands of jobs here in the U.S. and I for one am glad that is the case.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Coke heads are the best liars in the world.

    SS

  • Simon
    Simon

    I think the USA should be encouraged to do more as they undoubtedly could ... just as many other countries such as the UK could also.

    We are so used to the USA taking the lead in so many things that it is a great pity that in one of the most important things ever, they choose to not get involved. They do have a responsibility and I know it is not popular to Americans to say this but the standard of living enjoyed does come at a price.

    While in the short term the price is paid by some of the poorest people in the world, this will not be the case for ever and in the future it may well be paid for by future generations - that is all of our kids.

    Very good summary: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2002/disposable_planet/

    We all need to do more.

  • Simon
  • MegaDude
    MegaDude

    If you have the decency not to go off on an emotional bender and consider another point view, you might read the article below:

    Mythical Madness


    TCS

    by Philip Stott [ 10/06/2002 ]

    LONDON -- The other day, a somewhat irascible environmental correspondent who writes for one of the UK's more liberal bien pensant broadsheet newspapers demanded to know why I was so against the idea of 'global warming' and the Kyoto Protocol. "It seems you are in favour of pollution," he averred somewhat disparagingly (and, though left unsaid, that I was in favour of America, too, a much greater sin). I replied at length, but as simply as possible, producing my own broadside against the Kyoto Protocol and the dangers of the myth of "global warming."

    I reproduce the core of this Manifesto here, in the hope that others might find it of use to explain precisely why ratifying the Kyoto Protocol would be such a serious mistake.

    The Science

    I. Climate change is the norm, not the exception, and temperature is always either rising or falling. No climate change would be a most unexpected phenomenon worthy of report. Climate change is both gradual and catastrophic, in the sense of involving sudden change. In the past, there have been marked temperature changes within periods as short as 10 years of as much as 8 to 10 degrees Celsius, some of which have occurred within the last 15,000 years.

    II. A sense of climate history is thus vital in assessing any given change during our own short lifetime. The "Medieval Warm Period" ranged from 1 to 2 degrees (possibly more in some parts of the world) Celsius warmer than at present, despite our current emergence from the Little Ice Age, which ended around 1880. Moreover, in Europe, malaria (the ague) was worse during the cold of the Little Ice Age, and recent floods and storms are entirely within the norms of the last 1000 years. Changes in the distribution of fauna and flora have always occurred, present-day patterns being no exception. The ever-fluctuating population of cod in our seas is a fine example of such natural variation over the last 2000 years, especially during the Little Ice Age.

    III. The estimate of a rise of 0.6 degrees C over the last 150 years or so is thus very small beer and entirely in line with an emergence from a Little Ice Age, although even this figure is doubtful because: (i) there is little concordance between surface, balloon, and corrected satellite measurements; (ii) we must take into account increased urbanisation and the "Urban Heat Island" effect; and (iii) there are genuine problems with measuring air temperatures over the oceans.

    IV. With respect to modeling, climate is the ultimate coupled chaotic non-linear system involving: (i) millions of variables, all acting at different spatial and temporal scales; (ii) unpredictability over even short periods; (iii) possible chaotic shifts; and (iv), because of immensely complex feedbacks, including such factors as water vapor and clouds, near impossible challenges granted the poverty of our current state of knowledge. Even the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) admits that we know next-to-nothing about 75% of the main proxy variables involved.

    V. There is, accordingly, a serious antinomy at the heart of the myth of "global warming" (as distinct from the complex science of climate change), namely that climate is the most complex chaotic system known, but we think we can manage climate by playing about with just one small set of factors, namely so-called 'greenhouse' gases. In truth, we can no more predict the impact of halting gas emissions than of emitting gases.

    The Political Agenda

    VI. The idea that we can control climate is thus a dangerous myth. The Kyoto Protocol will not halt climate change, period.

    VII. Kyoto is dangerous, because: (i) the idea of a sustainable climate under human management is an oxymoron; (ii) what happens to scientific credibility when climate doesn't act as predicted? (iii) it is setting an agenda that could cost the world dear for no predictable impact on climate; (iv) there are many far better reasons for controlling genuine pollution both locally and nationally (I also do not believe that command-and-control economics and politics will work in this respect); and (v) it is setting completely the wrong international agenda, which must always focus on human adaptability and flexibility in the face of change, whatever its direction, (and in this, we must set up world systems to help the poor and disadvantaged above all else);

    VIII. Outside of the myth of global warming, carbon dioxide may not be a serious pollutant at all and it has only been thought to be "a pollutant" for the last 15 years. Moreover, nearly all alternative energy sources have their own downsides, from ecosystem disruption with tidal power to landscape despoliation with wind power. And even an hydrogen economy will emit locally water vapour, the most important greenhouse gas of all, and have immense problems with pipe embrittlement.

    IX. Kyoto may therefore be causing us to set completely false agendas in both economic and political terms, especially for the developing world. Even on a conservative economic estimate, the costs of Kyoto represent enough money to cancel the debts of the 49 poorest countries and provide clean drinking water for all.

    (As an example of such a false agenda, sea-level change in relation to Tuvalu is perhaps a classic. All real measurements show that Tuvalu has suffered, at worst, no sea level rise. However, it is likely that beach erosion and building on the island have caused the sea flooding of areas over the last decade. If this were true, it would be a genuine local environmental concern. But it is a local problem that will not be solved by massive cuts in carbon dioxide emissions. Yet, the 'global warming' myth, of course, insists otherwise.)

    X. My own studies indicate to me that 'human-caused global warming' has now become more an article of faith than of science, especially in Europe, where serious science questioning the myth rarely gets a look in through the media.

    XI. Lastly, it has conveniently become part of the myth that there are only a few contrarian scientists and that they are all in the pockets of the fossil fuel industry. In reality, there are hundreds of independent scientists all round the world and, at last, they are beginning to bring commonsense to bear on the myth.

    I very much hope, dear reader, that you will help in the continuing fight for critical science against ecochondria and hype.

    Philip Stott is Emeritus Professor of Biogeography in the University of London. His latest book, with Dr. Sian Sullivan, is Political ecology: science, myth and power (Arnold and OUP, 2000).

    Edited by - megadude on 4 September 2002 18:15:29

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit