trying to understand

by DixieDarlin07148 29 Replies latest jw friends

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  jst2laws

  To JT, Sixofnine, and Mommy,

  We may agree on all points, except that it is worse being a JW than a Catholic or Baptist.

  Yes, Mommy we treat people badly if they disagree. That’s why I warned we have ‘one of the most arrogant and controlling leaderships you will ever find’ and we hurt people. I hate it and try to prevent it.

  JT, I do not subscribe to JW’s being the one and only, not their ‘information from God’. Your point is valid, “with the passing of time is revealed to be neither from god/ nor based on the bible and entirely the opinion of men".

  SisofNine, if the arrogance was not a problem I would not have mentioned it. As to ‘listening to my conscience’ that is what I’m doing. How often do you here a JW admit his org is terribly flawed. I did not tell Dixie to jump on in, that this is the only truth on earth. I gave her a glimpse of the good and bad, then suggested she keep and open mind.

  Where we differ is in forgetting that the major religions of the world or responsible for most turmoil, savagery and untimely death do to war and religious bigotry and have done as bad or worse in dealing serious problems such a racism, extreme nationalism, sexism, etc.

  While being open about flaws and false claims, cant we with an open mind admit they have found some doctrinal truth and accomplished a few things worth acknowledging?

  Jst2laws
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  RedhorseWoman

  Where we differ is in forgetting that the major religions of the world or responsible for most turmoil, savagery and untimely death do to war and religious bigotry and have done as bad or worse in dealing serious problems such a racism, extreme nationalism, sexism, etc.

  This is definitely true. What is also true is that the major religions of the world have been around much longer than the WTBTS. For an organization that has been extant for only a little over a hundred years, they are pilinig up an impressive record of bigotry, sexism, untimely death, and mental health problems among their members.

  Give them time.....pretty soon they'll have a record as heinous (or probably worse) than the worst of them.
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  Pathofthorns

  While being open about flaws and false claims, cant we with an open mind admit they have found some doctrinal truth and accomplished a few things worth acknowledging?

  If you really have an open mind yourself and do a little research into your own beliefs and their history, you will see that there really are few things worth acknowledging. Stick around and do some thinking and you will change your tune. Most of us thought the same at one time. Eventually you realize everything is not so obvious and "cut and dry" as you think.

  Path
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  ianao

  While being open about flaws and false claims, cant we with an open mind admit they have found some doctrinal truth and accomplished a few things worth acknowledging?

  Not being a JW, I can say that in all fairness that JWs aren't very much different from any other mellinialist christian religions.

  And since not all mellinialist christian religions are necessarily 'BAD', I guess, by association, you could call that a 'complement'.

  BTW, an 'open mind' is not synonymous with a straight and narrow path. Think about what you are asking others to consider.

  Edited by - ianao on 22 March 2001 16:56:59
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  dark clouds

  jst2:
  by far these have got to be the most "sincere" and truthful comments i have ever heard leave an elders mouth:
  "We though stand out as having one of the most arrogant and controlling leaderships you will ever find.
  "will find some negative comment about Jehovah's Witnesses and many disserved.
  "You will hear of corrupt leadership, tolerance of child molestation, needless deaths due to refusal of blood transfusions, lost opportunities due to a strange attitude toward higher education, marriage, childbearing and a host of subjects in which I regret to admit we should never have got involved"

  at first read, i really believed it was genuine, but as usual this compassion was directed to an outsider not an insider. for a second i thought the organizaton was truly concerned with the spiritual well being of the flock. so i went back and re-read just to make sure i had the meaning of what you were saying:

  "I regret this yet we still have a body of basic beliefs that is hard to find anywhere
  "you may hear so much of this about JW's it is easy to forget that the Catholics, Baptist and all other denominations have similar if not worse histories"
  at second read though, i sit here and shake my head, for two reasons:
  1. because of how typical it is for you to point the finger and say how much better the witnesses are than everyone else.
  2. because its easy to alleviate your own guilt by pointing at others and taking the focus away from you.
  
  i honestly feel that, you may actually be sincere and are finally realizing that the borg is wrong. why else would you say you regret? are you beginning to realize the truth?
  perhaps this is only my optimistic outlook that eventually the WT will be discovered for the fraud that it is and the fact that it is only out for its own fullfilment.
  why else would you be posting here unless your conscience has already begun tugging at you. why else would you be reading such posts you know who we are here. doesnt this jeopardize your standing?
  how much longer will you continue to justify and play the charade
  jst2?
  perhaps it is "you who has the bigger issues with which to concern yourself with"
  simply obseving
  CHUCK
  
  one more thing:
  "and this loving God does not torture people in eternal torment for disappointing him."
  try being raised with the idea that the world is coming to an end at any given second. who needs eternity? when it is a very real fear to endure growing up. perhaps you are right and it is not god, but i learned that reading my watchtowers!
  may YOUR CONSCIENCE be your guide
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  jst2laws

  Dark Clouds,

  Is it not possible for a person to acknowledge shortcomings of his religious organization, recognition of the deviation of it’s leadership, and hurtful teachings and conduct, and yet in good conscience still recognize they have enough valid Scriptural teachings and good people within to salvage. Is it not possible that this could be thought or expressed without being motivated by a sense of superiority or hypocrisy? I only referred to the shortcomings of other religious organizations to raise the possibility that we tend to hold the WTBTS to a standard that no religious group could stand up against. The WT has some extreme defects that others do not, yet they have some commendable teachings and accomplishments.

  I realize I am in dangerous territory because I am expressing these heartfelt thoughts among a majority of people who have been injured by this very institution. Please accept the fact that I am one of those few people who stood up for you, took some heat, lost sleep at night, yet I hang on partly to mitigate damages and otherwise because I hope for a kinder, loving administration in the future. Yes I am one of those dreamers. But please tolerate me. I’m not condemning anyone, nor criticizing or complaining, nor am I defending or justifying wrongs. Lets respect each other, tolerate differing views, and keep an open mind.

  Jst2laws

  Edited by - jst2laws on 22 March 2001 20:46:10
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  ozziepost

  jst2laws: welcome, brother, to this Home, Sweet, Home. You will probably find more sincere and heartfelt concern for people here than I ever did from my fellow elders. I sympathise with you that you feel you do care for the brothers and sisters. So did I. I too had sleepless nights many times. The fact is, though, that if the basic theology is wrong, nothing you can do will stop your brothers and sisters being hurst. Until the elders face up to, and are instructed to, view themselves as sinners needing forgiveness, you will always have a Pharisee class IMHO. My conclusion after serving 35 years as an elder and in recent years at Bethel is that our fellow elders do not view themselves as sinners. Please read the account at Luke 7:36-50. Note especially verse 47: "By virtue of this, I tell you, her sins, many though they are, are forgiven, because she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." Please take this to heart. If you applied this, you would not be concerned with applying 'rules' or ks91, nor, in your heart, could you defend a man-made system that hurts so many.

  DixieDarlin: Welcome to you, kid! Glad to have ya here. Many will say that you're too young. IMHO it's too late for that. I know, I was there too, many years ago. I loved her, she loved me, and we made whooppee till we were old and grey. Good luck to ya! But if you were my daughter I'd be concerned!!! Enjoy your visits here. We're mostly friendly. Simon, the host, is very generous.

  Cheers,

  Ozzie
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  DixieDarlin07148

  Trevor,
  Thanx a lot for your post,but I believe in this relationship with all my heart And I have always been taught through my parents and my religion that if you dont have Faith and Love then you have nothing!!I personally feel sorry for someone that doesn't have this same passion about Faith and Love.And if you think that the reason I'm so interested is because I think that this relationship won't survive then your sadly mistaken because I want to know all this information because I believe in this relationship with everything in me and because I have enough love for him that I want to take time out to try and understand his familys beliefs and the way he has lived his life so I have a better understanding of things that hes gone through or that he will go through and I never asked for your negative comments about my relationship i asked for any information you had on JW's so next time you decide to comment I would appreciate if it were something that could help me instead of insult me!!!!Thanx anywayz!
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  NewLight2

  Check out these two sites:

  General belifs of Jw's
  1. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/

  This is my home page - about mid-way I have lots of links to other sites about Jw's beliefs
  2. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/5385/Links1.html
• 

  Norm

  Hello Jst2laws,

  You said:

  Is it not possible for a person to acknowledge shortcomings of his religious organization, recognition of the deviation of it’s leadership, and hurtful teachings and conduct, and yet in good conscience still recognize they have enough valid Scriptural teachings and good people within to salvage. Is it not possible that this could be thought or expressed without being motivated by a sense of superiority or hypocrisy? I only referred to the shortcomings of other religious organizations to raise the possibility that we tend to hold the WTBTS to a standard that no religious group could stand up against. The WT has some extreme defects that others do not, yet they have some commendable teachings and accomplishments.

  Of course it is possible. If you want to remain a Jehovah's Witness it is undoubtedly your right to do just that. However I have no problems understanding that people hold the Watchtower Society to an impossible standard. It is the Watchtower Society itself who have started that game, as it holds everyone but themselves to such a standard. They might have some commendable teachings although I fail to see what they are and for accomplishments I am unable to mention any such.

  I realize I am in dangerous territory because I am expressing these heartfelt thoughts among a majority of people who have been injured by this very institution. Please accept the fact that I am one of those few people who stood up for you, took some heat, lost sleep at night, yet I hang on partly to mitigate damages and otherwise because I hope for a kinder, loving administration in the future. Yes I am one of those dreamers. But please tolerate me. I’m not condemning anyone, nor criticizing or complaining, nor am I defending or justifying wrongs. Lets respect each other, tolerate differing views, and keep an open mind.

  Jst2laws

  I for one must say that I appreciate your presence here and will strongly encourage you to keep expressing your thoughts to us all. If is always refreshing to find a thinking Jehovah's Witness as it is a welcome change from the usual “company men” type who will defend whatever is printed in the latest Watchtower, and ignore all arguments and documentation.
  Personally I have no problem with you being a Jehovah's Witnesses. I don’t understand why anyone would want that, but I suspect that it is a case of not having sufficient information; if you continue to hang around here I think that may change in the future. If you want to know my take of the Watchtower you will find some of my essay’s on this address: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm under Norman Hovland

  Regards

  Norm