trying to understand

by DixieDarlin07148 29 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hello jst2laws:

    I have to say that I admire you for your frank admissions and for posting on this website. Not many JWs have the intellectual honesty or courage to do either.

    : Is it not possible for a person to acknowledge shortcomings of his religious organization, recognition of the deviation of it’s leadership, and hurtful teachings and conduct, and yet in good conscience still recognize they have enough valid Scriptural teachings and good people within to salvage. Is it not possible that this could be thought or expressed without being motivated by a sense of superiority or hypocrisy? I only referred to the shortcomings of other religious organizations to raise the possibility that we tend to hold the WTBTS to a standard that no religious group could stand up against. The WT has some extreme defects that others do not, yet they have some commendable teachings and accomplishments.

    All true statements, but you must recognize one thing: It is the Society itself that has created this high standard. Is it not true in life that "with what judgment you are judging, you will be judged; and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you"? Jehovah's Witnesses for many decades have measured others by an impossibly high standard -- one so high that they are quite unwilling to be judged by it or to try to live up to it. So on one level, critics like me realize perfectly well that the Witnesses are on the whole not very different from other cultish, controlling religions, but on another level we enjoy rubbing the noses of self-righteous, arrogant, judgmental people in their own doo-doo.

    Keep in mind that the Society promotes what I like to call The Fundamental Doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is that the Governing Body speaks for God and is to be treated as an earthly substitute for God. This doctrine has created all sorts of aberrant teachings and behaviors, which I'm sure you're well aware of. It is no surprise when normal people react in a normal way to people who so obviously are not what they claim, but who are all too willing to publicly condemn others for not accepting their false claims.

    I have a number of friends and acquaintances who, like you, are JWs but recognize the many shortcomings of the Society and the JW community. I have no idea how they manage to stay active in the JW organization. When I realized how sadly I had been deceived in my upbringing as a JW, it literally made me sick. I don't understand how people can remain part of a group that claims to be God's unique, exclusive organization when they obviously don't believe that at all. They reject the group's most fundamental teaching, yet want to remain part of the group. That desire goes beyond humanitarian concerns. What's in it for you?

    AlanF

  • ICHING
    ICHING

    .

    Edited by - ICHING on 23 March 2001 8:0:28

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Dixie:

    I have to apologize for myself and others taking this thread in an unexpected direction. You would have to have been a Witness for a while to understand why many of the posters have chosen to address J2L instead of yourself.

    What you need to appreciate is that anyone who has been raised a Witness has been "altered" inside. That means even if your boyfriend leaves, because of how he was raised and what he was taught, he will most likely have a difficult time with things you find easy. Things like Christmas will be unusual for him.

    What this means is that you will have to be very understanding and tolerant and do like you are doing and keep trying to understand what makes him this way.

    You mention you plan to raise your children as Baptists. It is not very likely that a person who was raised as a Witness will join another religion. Not that it can't happen, but what is more likely is that he will be tolerant of you being a baptist and you raising the children in the faith.

    Keep in mind too, that when one leaves the JW religion, often times he will lose all his JW friends and his family may choose not to speak with him any more. That may mean no grandparents for your children.

    And like TR and not wanting to sound like your father, I would have to agree with his sentiments and recommend you taking as much time as you need. Let him finish school and go to college. Let him leave the religion and see how he deals with that.

    Also, while your friend says he wants to leave, if he doesn't understand exactly why his religion is flawed, there will always be something inside him driving him to go back. He may think he knows his religion. The reality is that probably 95% of Witnesses only know the surface. Invite him to come here and look around.

    I wish you two the best.

    Path

  • ICHING
    ICHING

    2laws:

    The WT has some extreme defects that others do not, yet they have some commendable teachings and accomplishments.

    what if the commendable teachings and accomplishments
    aren't as extreme as the defects?

    what's the ratio between the two?

    imho i would not be allowing to wide a margin for defect

    and having people believing in their (wtbts)

    commendable teachings and accomplishments

    seems at the very core of the
    wtbts brainwash strategy

    to me

    commendable teachings and accomplishments

    the plan (brainwash/indoctrination) won't work without those factors built into the equation

    why else would they be in there?

    for our benefit?

    the fact that one cant see it

    the fact that one can't see that because of that

    is what makes it so brilliant

    ones belief in that statement is proof that the commendable teachings and accomplishments angle works brilliantly within the framework of the wtbts brainwash/indoctrination facilitation program

    to perpetuate

    their (wtbts's) worldwide literature sales & real estate acquisition based dictatorial power regime

    it seems to me

    that the whole wtbts regime falls apart without the commendable teachings and accomplishments facade

    it seems to me that no ones gonna buy (the wtbts)if it doesn't taste a little sweet

    while-ever one is swallowing the spoonful of commendable teachings and accomplishments sugar they are allowing the

    the poison (all evidence to the contrary) to go down

    in the most delightful way.

    ICHING

    Edited by - ICHING on 23 March 2001 8:16:33

    Edited by - ICHING on 23 March 2001 8:29:25

    Edited by - ICHING on 23 March 2001 8:30:43

  • waiting
    waiting

    Well, hey there, Norm!

    I kinda thought that you and Norman Hovland were one and the same but wasn't sure. Tactfully, I kept my questions to myself.

    I've always enjoyed your essays, along with Alan's and many others. Very thought provoking, and not always intimidating for a jw - which most of your readers are/were.

    I came to this site as a curious, angry jw fencesitter. And I was not going to jump to either side until I tried to make my own decision. I felt that I'd been told what to say/do/think/act for 30 years, and finally - I just wanted the chance to think and read in freedom. I felt that was my right - and it is for everyone.

    If active Jehovah's Witnesses want to come and discuss - I think that's one of the primary reasons this place was started. I know it sure helped me and some others.

    Thanks for the invitation for all to come and visit and chat/discuss. Sometimes we forget that, including myself.

    waiting

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey DixieDarlin',

    Just where in Dixie do you reside? I'm in South Carolina - DixieDarlin' is a popular name here - kinda like "sweetie."

    Along with Path, I apologize for not responding to you - I understand your situation. Path and others are right and I'm sure that's not what you want to hear. However, ozzie made a good point - it's your life and others have made faulty moves and came out fine also.

    There is no hurry - in spite of what you think. Life is long - and marriage can be longer, trust me on that one, darlin'. Why not go for the education - and if it's love, it'll last. By the time he gets to college (perhaps the same?) you could then revisit the idea of marriage? You both would be more equipped to raise children, have a home, etc., with a college education, don't you think?

    Best wishes, waiting

  • dark clouds
    dark clouds

    Jst2:
    Consider this your first step in a 12 step program, and allow me to say welcome and thank you for coming around (ahem) aboard. If perhaps my words sound harsh it is because of years of enduring deceipt. 20 years to be exact. I feel my youth was taken and any anger that i may harbor is directed at an attempt to pry the eyes of those that i feel want an escape. I was disgusted by the lies and repulsed by the cover-ups and excuses.

    As i said earlier i detect a hint of sincerity in your words, something i found uncommon among the elders of my time. And the fact that you show an open mind by posting, shows you are well aware that a reform is needed in the society of the WT (PERHAPS A NEW RELIGION EVEN, we have started one hehe). Too many lives are damaged and too many families are torn, too many issues to ignore while claiming to be the only true voice of god on earth.

    The haughtiness is sickening when we realize that Jesus was probably the most HUMBLE man to walk on earth. It is a shame that the WT never applied that when setting its standards. It is an even greater shame when we are not allowed to speak our minds freely in the halls that claim to be dedicated to the one true god. Lucky for us there are other places to find good fellowship and believers.

    with all respect
    CHUCK

  • conflicted
    conflicted

    I think it's a brave thing for J2L to come here and post his thoughts the way he has - climbing a soap box and preaching won't work here. He has found a way to speak to us, and get us to listen by admitting the flaws in the organization - it seems to me though that there wouldn't be so many flaws if the society was truly run directly by Jehovah God through his faithful and discreet slave. God is infallible - God is perfect, true, people are imperfect, but would and infallible perfect being allow His organization to be run as sloppily and shoddy as the WTS and still allow them to continue doing this in His name. I find it hard to believe.

    Dixie: Patience is the key for your situation. Pathofthorns has good advise - leaving the JW's isn't easy when your family is involved - he WILL be alienated, dont doubt this. He WILL be pressured to return, and he may do just that. Even if he does leave and doesn't go back, everything you consider normal will be foreign to him - he has never lived for himself before - he has never done ANYTHING just because he wanted to. His whole life has been dictated by what others expect of him, and he has been taught that this world will soon be destroyed, so there was never a need to cultivate anything lasting in his life. I dont want to sound harsh or mean-spirited, I just want you to be aware that this is going to be hard for both of you. He can say he wants to leave - actually doing it is completely different. Best of luck to you both.

  • patio34
    patio34

    Jst2laws,
    I'll bet this is the ONLY place you express such frank opinions about the WTS. Because, probably not only would you be removed posthaste, but may even be df'd as an apostate. I have doubts and opinions too, but its verboten to discuss this among jws. Verboten by the WTS. How totalitarian!

  • cskyjw.sun
    cskyjw.sun

    only marry in the lord.if you want to remaind as a baptist,it will be an obstacle to overcome.

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