Why has God Permitted Wickedness? (page 2)

patio34

Hi Hillary,

I won't and can't answer your question because it presupposes a belief in a god. This is where the question loses me. If the question were why is there suffering and violence?--leaving divinity out of it--it would be answerable.

So, I'll answer the above question just for fun and to open it up a bit more. Okay?

My answer is:

"Of course there is no god, and in evolution, living beings long ago became hunters (I think the flatworm in the ocean was one of the first?). We have simply inherited that survival technique. Even the Bible in Jesus' words urges one to look at nature. I did--and came away convinced there's no one running the show. That's why there's suffering & violence; it started with the very earliest life forms on earth and is pervasive. To say that Adam's alleged sin caused the violence doesn't wash, because dinosaurs existed millions of years before humans and their violence had nothing to do with Adam's alleged sin."

Thanks for opening this up and tolerating my expanding on it.

Pat

Ephanyminitas

Wrote LDH: "Because he's a narcissistic, selfish asshole?" Well said, I say! And don't forget what Homer Simpson once said: God is insecure.

hillary_step

LOL...Expat,

My apologies at missing this important post, I must have been elsewhere wasting my time working or polishing the cat or something....lol

An excellent piece of well explained research. I have always felt a little uncomfortable with Hobbes explanation of the part that pre-meditation plays in personal self-sacrifice. It is a powerful viewpoint however and one that does sit on the shelf of possible explanations for the universal issues that we are discussing. That it is not definitive however, makes the point that I am trying to make regarding the imponderable questions which one may never find the answer to.

Incidentally I have in my own collection a third edition of 'Leviathan'. It is interesting the influence that Hobbes had on Erasmus Darwin ( Darwins grandfather ) and his own thinking on human evolution. Though the later Darwinian views of natural selection are undoubtedly true, imho they are one of the most dangerous truths to emerge in mankinds history.

Thanks Expat, I must say that you have written some very interesting posts in the past few weeks. We will mark you G and move you on to your next point of counsel.lol

Thanks - HS

expatbrit

Hillary:

Incidentally I have in my own collection a third edition of 'Leviathan'.

I have to say I'm really quite jealous of that, being a bit of an antiquarian book-freak myself.

Going from memory, there were three editions of Leviathan printed in 1651 with the printer given as Andrew Crooke (head, ornament and bear they are called I think). Is yours the third of these, or a later edition given as the third? Any chance of a scan?

And hopefully my next point of counsel is beer drinking.

Expatbrit

Edited by - expatbrit on 9 September 2002 21:54:48

hillary_step

Yes Expat,

If I remember correctly even the second edition was dated 1651 and printed in Amsterdam, same year as the first and very hard to tell them apart from the 1st edition. I have the what is believed to be the third English, 4to 1697 edition. It is in pretty good shape, though the hinges are starting. I actually know of a 1st edition, believe it or not in CAD, in the hands of an eccentric professor. We must chat-offline.

Best regards - HS

Farkel

HS,

We're all pretty much in agreement that it is assinine and idiotic to believe that all of mankind has had to suffer and die so because two morons had bad taste in fruit trees.

Furthermore, we can toss out the "God is 'testing' us" nonsense, too.

Can you imagine a human father saying to his ten-year-old son:

Dad: "Well, son, I'm gonna have to give you lots difficult tests for the rest of your life."

Son: "What kind of tests?"

Dad: "For one, you have to worship me, and not only that, you have to worship me in the way I like to be worshipped."

Son: "What way is that, Dad?"

Dad: "Can't tell you. You've got to figure it out."

Son: "What if I get it wrong, Dad?"

Dad: "I'll kill you."

Son: "Oh."

Dad: "As you are growing up and going through life, you will have tests, tests that I will put in front of you ON PURPOSE."

Son: "Why would you do that, Dad?"

Dad: "Because I LOVE you, that's why?"

Son: "That doesn't make sense."

Dad: "One of the tests you will have is to never question anything I say, no matter how idiotic it is. If you do, I will kill you."

Son: "How will I know if I'm able to pass all those tests you give me, Dad?"

Dad: "If I don't kill you, you've passed them."

Son: "Aren't you going to give me any advice or help so I'll know what to do?"

Dad: "Well, if you insist, here's a guidebook for you. It's totally confusing, full of myths, false prophecies, weird chronologies and loaded with contradictions. If you can figure it out, you win the game. If you can't, I'll kill you."

Son: "You're REALLY weird, Dad."

Since no sane human father would ever do that to his own children, how are we to expect that the God of all Gods would do that to his own children?

Perhaps we somehow all chose to be sent here as some part of a game. We agreed to have our memories erased while we were on earth playing the game, and we got to select the circumstances of our birth and some of the circumstances (good and bad) that would befall us during our human existence. Perhaps we get to play this game as many or as few times as we wish, and none of it means anything, other than that it is a game. If we were immortal, such a game might be a wonderful diversion from harp-playing and God-praising.

Hell, I DON'T KNOW!

I don't know about you, but I know this: "As for me and my household, we ain't gonna sell no stinking Watchtowers ever again!"

Farkel

Edited by - Farkel on 9 September 2002 22:38:19

minimus

Farkel, you said this could be some type of "game". I am intrigued by that. Do you really think could be the case or were you justtalking outloud?

DanTheMan

Torturing myself with 'meaning-of-life' questions has become a favourite (British spelling for HS and others ) activity of mine lately. I read a book a few months ago by a Catholic writer name Peter Kreeft titled Making Sense of Suffering. I enjoyed some aspects of it, but of course it didn't totally answer the question, what possibly could? His take seemed to be, that no learning, no beauty, no wisdom comes without suffering first. He also likened God's relationship to our suffering to a horse trainer's "breaking" of a wild horse, that this is what God is doing with us, taming our wild souls with suffering.

I agree with Hobbes, that men are motivated by self-interest. But as Hillary hinted, although the fittest do survive, you can get really brutal with that kind of thinking. I think that life has a deeper meaning than survival, though that meaning is still pretty cloudy to me, and probably always will be.

HS, I'm anxious to hear more of your views on this.

Farkel

minimus,

Sure, it could be a game. That makes more sense than the Bible, because it is our CHOICE to be on earth and go through what we go through, and not have to worry about anything because one human lifetime is just a chapter in a game we are playing for our own amusement.

Then again, maybe God DOES like to kill his own children for sport and pleasure. That's up to each one of us to decide in the end, isn't it?

Farkel

outoftheorg

Why does God Let evil and hurt to his creation happen?

Could it be that he just does not care?

Did he put us here on this earth and leave us on our own? To find out for ourselves how to live with one another and not foul up?

I have often pondered these things and I have no answer.

No one else has an answer that makes any sense.

I got to the point where I no longer care. God can do as he pleases and I will live my life as I please and if that is wrong? Well too damned bad.

Outoftheorg

Why has God Permitted Wickedness?

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