My argument is based on the Idea that these celebrations displease God. If there's no belief in God and his scripture, then who cares if you do or don't celebrate it, right? How can you argue for or against pagan celebrations if you don't hold to a belief in God and his scripture? Europe can do or say whatever he wants and be only accountable to Europe. Not so with a christian. He is accountable to God and so his day to day living must be in accordance to his will. If not, then your only accountable to yourself which is fine but that's where the line in our discussion is drawn. All I hear you saying is "If you want to celebrate it, then fine, have fun! who I am I to tell them not to have fun" If your not a believer then why even argue? Your opinion is not based from a belief in a god that holds you accountable for your faith. It's sounds more to me like a "do what you wanna do" dogma. Unlike JW's who go door to door, I don't impose my views on anyone. But I will make my opinion known if asked.
Should I have a Christmas tree?
by scuba99 84 Replies latest watchtower medical
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beckyboop
Naked,
I can understand where you're coming from since I was raised a JW and their "pagan origin" views. However, I'd like to just say that if you're really going to point the finger at the holidays, then you need to look at many aspects of your everyday life that have pagan origins. Remember the calendar, wedding rings, throwing rice at weddings....etc.? I'm sure if we dig deep enough we can find "pagan" origins associated with many things we do and have in our homes every day.
Don't you think that whatever version of "god" is, he would be more interested in how we treat others--including various celebrations of life on certain days of the year? I certainly wouldn't want to offend you and your beliefs and the way you live your life. But, can you at least see that most people who choose to indulge in those holidays are only using them to bring joy into their lives and those around them?
I personally am trying to find the happy medium in between the garbage I was fed as a jw, and my own happiness at being able to visit with and share presents with those I love. Last year at Christmas I was unable to give much, but received more than I ever dreamed! I'm looking forward to giving in my own way this year--because I want to.
Becky
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Swan
Dear Scuba,
My husband was never a JW and he has always celebrated Christmas. So I began celebrating too. He decorates the whole house with lights (almost as bad as Tim Allen) and it takes us hours and hours of trudging at the local tree farms to find THE perfect Christmas tree. It took me a while to learn the customs, but now I look forward to Christmas every year.
My suggestion is to honor your wife's beliefs, not your father's. Your father doesn't live with you, your wife does. Heck, there is even some scripture in your father's Bible where Jesus talks about leaving your parents and becoming one flesh with your wife. So do it, relax, and enjoy it. Life is too short to worry about such things.
Merry Christmas!
Tammy
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scuba99
Thanks Swan,
I think you're right.I'm gonna enjoy the season with her. It's gonna be wierd but I think it'll be fun=)
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nakedmvistar
I understand your point, becky. I have no problem with gift giving or get togethers with friends and family. You can set any day for this. I just don't feel like tainting these functions with rituals which were designed at one point to commemorate festivals and sacrifice to some demi-god. Like I wrote previously, JW's aren't the only religious body that subscribes to this point of view. It has been known and understood for a while, and is now for whatever reason, seen a resurgence. Don't label it as false or bad just because the JW's hold it in their central doctrine. I'm not arguing for the validity of the JW's and their beliefs. But I do find this particular belief of theirs to be valid.
And yes, I am aware of other customs which have their origin in paganism. Truly satan is the god of this world. His deceptions have permeated every facet of our society. We can only do the best we can in this imperfect world.
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beckyboop
Naked,
Wedding rings, throwing rice, calendars, food, certain types of clothing, symbols--all of these things are not mere "customs"--they are a huge part of our everyday life! Do you not wear a ring, look and/or use a calendar, or many other things that have their complete originations in paganism? Somehow I doubt it; tell me if I'm wrong though. I personally don't think that a "god" would say that some of it is right, and only some wrong when it's all the same background.
I just don't subscribe to the "satan as ruler" theory any more--my 70 or 80 years on earth (hopefully, if I'm lucky and take care of myself) don't need any more evil influences than are already living on earth today. I'm much more confident that we are in control--not an unseen force. Besides, that way I'm not always afraid that my next mistake will be the one that causes my supposedly loving "father" to kill me. I'm much happier believing that I'm responsible for my own life--not counting accidents.
Great topics though, it's nice to read other's viewpoints even when different from my own. I guess I just got tired of my "life" being enslaved to anything other than my own making--because that's hard enough.
Scuba,
I would have to agree that you should do what you want to do first of all, and definitely at least try it out for your wife's sake (I personally love the holidays). You live with her as pointed out earlier, and your home life is very important. Your father at some point needs to accept that you are an adult and are capable of making your own decisions. Of course, we still should be respectful of their beliefs, as we hope that they will someday respect ours also.
Good night all,
Becky
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larc
Naked,
I know it is a good thing, like you say, to be with friends and family for a spontaneous "celebration". Is there anything at all, that you celebrate or acknowledge on an annual basis? How about Mother's day or Father's day? Are these bad as well?
If you say that you have not one date on your calender that is special for you, that's OK. That, obviously, is your right.
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nakedmvistar
I have get togethers with friends and family. But nothing on a yearly basis. I'm sure my views are a bit more militant than most, but unlike the many people in this forum who for whatever reason have been hurt by the JW's, I was never a part of that org. In the small amount of time that i've been on this forum, I have read many personal experiences in regards to the JW's. I find many, unfortunately, who run like hell from anything God or religious after their experiences. For us individuals who have not had these adverse experiences, it may seem a bit extreme to have the reactions so posted on this forum. Some may be valid others not. Only God ultimately knows what's really going on. I'll take my chances with my faith in him and hope that i'm not wrong. That's the gamble of putting your faith in something greater than yourself if, of course, you can bring yourself to trust in something that much....
Beckyboop is in her 70's and chooses not to believe anymore. Are the jw's to blame for this? Probably. In my opinion, Satan has succeeded with perfect precision. She rejects organized religion and God, and satan is but a fable. The perfect con.
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pincushion
Nothing wrong with having a tree and a few lights on the tree. After all you have electricity and plants, right ! Why worry about the feelings of people who shun you..go for the tree. It can be hard to change onces beliefs and engrained non traditions, however in your new life with your new wife you have to start making your own traditions. Personally I could never figure out why (at least in the congregations I went to) that wedding anniverseries were so bloody important to require booking of community halls for all to celebrate...and all other occasions were frowned upon. Is not ones own birth important? Yes the birth of Christ may not be that of Dec 25, but there is so much more to Christmas...and that is being with family and showing love. I know at my house we put up the tree and celebrate the fact we can be together, most the time the religious aspect is not talked about. For many Christians the Christmas tree still retains the symbolism of the Paradise tree. The tree reminds us of the tree in Eden by which Adam and Eve were overcome and which thrust them into sin. But more importantly, the tree reminds us of the tree by which our sin was overcome, namely the tree upon which Christ Jesus was crucified. Is it a stretch to refer to the cross as a tree? Hardly, for this is the language of the New Testament itself! For example, Paul writes in Galatians 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree" (quoting Deut. 21:23). And Peter writes, "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." Therefore, the Christmas tree is a wonderful symbol and reminder of our salvation and forgiveness through Jesus Christ!
