by hawkaw 22 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
But ... there is something else that I do not want to get into - understand for fear I would jepoardize the present case .... I hope you can understand that but there is a lot going on behind the curtain that I am not at liberty to explain .
hawk
{{{Hawk}}}, Thanks for the update. Reading between the lines here I sincerely hope that at some point the crimminal(the Father) will be made to answer for his crime-the f****** b******.
Thank you for all you do!
seven
There is a link here to a news article with a space to submit any feelings and coments in general about the law suit. Min. of 250 words. If anybody is interested
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36800&site=3
'Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind....'
Thanks Hawk - HS
Needless to say these Elders are colossal morons!!!!! rocky220
Hawk your our man, thanks so much for keeping us posted on this case. I have been away and have missed what was happening, and I appreciate every bit of info you are giving us. I know you and grace and quotes a ex and all the gang down there are doing a stupendeous job and are a real support to Vicki. It seems to me that justice will triumph, bless you all.
Love orangefatcat.
LOL at Hawkaw..."JW at large".
I have to admit...you looked the part at first....sure didn't want any Jdubs spying and listening in on our conversations. LOL It was really nice to meet you and its too bad you couldn't stay to join us all after for supper. We watched the news report on TV in the pub and all 12 or 13 of us cheered and clapped when it was over. I also noticed we also got smiles of approval from strangers at the surrounding tables.
Some particular things that stood out in my mind yesterday was how Vicki's laywer kept referring to elder Brown's words describing the abuse as a "horrible thing" and then asking him "If this was such a horrible thing, how could you have judged this as only 'loose conduct' and given him the punishment of only private reproof?" Brown answered quite impatiently that 'loose conduct' is a "brazen defiance of god's law of a sexual nature." Mr. Mark then asked how can losing "mic" privileges and saying the prayer once in a while for the congregation constitute reasonable punishment.
Brown answered: "these were the only privileges he had."
Oh I see!! that makes it OK then doesn't it folks?
So there you have it folks....a 'brazen defiance of god's laws' results in private reproof where the sinner loses his mic and prayer privileges. I'd sure like to hear Brown explaining to god, how the lack of severity of that punishment equals a "brazen defiance" of His laws. LOL
ALSO: In Brown and Cairns 2 meetings with the Palmers, when asked by Mr. Mark how the father described the details, Brown said the father would mention a detail and Vicki would correct him. Brown said the father's description "MINIMIZED" the events until Vicki would correctly describe the events as actual abuse, and then the father would yield to the correct version.
Mr. Mark then said "in that first meeting with the Palmers, with this pattern of the father MINIMIZING the events, and Brown describing the details as 'horrible', how could you not try to stop him from going away for 3 weeks holiday with Vicki's mother and younger siblings, one of which was an ll yr. old girl .... the same age Vicki was when he started to molest her?"
Brown said "he felt it was safe".
Mr. Mark also stressed the fact that the father followed this pattern of MINIMIZING the details in both meetings Brown described. Yet they kept encouraging him to go the CAS himself to 'fess up, so how could they trust the father to give accurate details to the CAS?
Brown answered that Gower's minimizing of events did not raise concern.
Mr. Mark also asked: "isn't it evident that in that meeting that only lasted about 1 hour, that his minimizing of events was a true sign of non-repentance?" and that "couldn't Gower's display of repentance have been much like the Pharisee's who were good on the outside and bad on the inside?"
Brown just answered "I can't read minds. I can only look at the acts befitting repentance".
So I ask: Why then are they putting themselves in the position to judge such a serious thing as an accusation as child abuse? It is a crime for professionals trained how to investigate, not untrained, unpaid volunteers with a high school education.
He kept saying that "the primary concern of the Judicial Committee is the repentance of the wrongdoer--Vicki was there to provide details, not to get help as a victim." He kept mentioning that they were concerned for Vicki's spiritual well-being.
Mr. Mark asked Brown why was Vicki told to apply Matt 18 and confront her father with his abuse. Brown said that didn't apply to serious matters like abuse. It is only used for things like fraud and slander and some other like principles. Mr. Mark asked why is Matt 18 used only for those things? Does it say so in the scriptures?
Brown retorted impatiently that he didn't want to have a theological discussion with him. But Mr. Mark continued on saying but why fraud and slander. Let me get a Bible (walked over to another table to fetch a Bible) and you can show us that scripture.
Brown rolled his eyes and snidely interrupted as Mr. Mark was going over to get the Bible saying: "Oh so we ARE going to have a theological discussion afer all?"
Mr. Mark stopped though saying no it wasn't necessary. It was left there though, leaving Brown looking very disturbed with egg on his face.
This is especially important because it is on record from previous testimony, that the elders insisted to Vicki that she HAD to apply Matt 18 and go confront her father first even though she begged them not to make her. Now Brown comes along, the primary elder in the Judicial Committee, saying Matt 18 only applied to things like fraud and slander.
Its very obvious to all that their claim and attempts of "abiding by the law of reporting" fall deep into the category of gross incompetance and serious neglect because of not reporting "forthwith"...immediately. AND just because he claimed he had stopped, they couldn't know if he would molest again or if he had already molested someone else. If he continually minimized the details which in effect was lying, why couldn't he lie again? I'm not saying he did not stop, but I AM saying they the elders had no way of knowing for sure. They are not trained investigators.
Yesterday was a very interesting day in court, I must say. And it was great to see the amount of support Vicki had including Jim Penton and Barbara and Joe Anderson. The JWs big smiley faces, hand-shaking and laughter were not so apparent that day.
And I just heard on a phone call that Barbara and Joe said this morning was just as good today, so I'm off to go meet with them to hear all about it. I'll try to fill in later.
Had Enough
Edited by - Had Enough on 17 September 2002 16:34:40
Edited again by Had Enough---because of being in too much of a hurry and not checking for errors
Edited by - Had Enough on 17 September 2002 16:36:59
Mr. Mark then said "in that first meeting with the Palmers, with this pattern of the father MINIMIZING the events, and Brown describing the details as 'horrible', how could you not try to stop him from going away for 3 weeks holiday with Vicki's mother and younger siblings, one of which was an ll yr. old girl .... the same age Vicki was when he started to molest her?"
Brown said "he felt it was safe". ..........and...............
He kept saying that "the primary concern of the Judicial Committee is the repentance of the wrongdoer--Vicki was there to provide details, not to get help as a victim." He kept mentioning that they were concerned for Vicki's spiritual well-being.
So, which is it? Are the elders judging the safety of children going on vaction with a known child molester (quote one)...or are the elders concerned only with spirituality (quote two)? Brown's words are in direct conflict.
Mr. Mark also stressed the fact that the father followed this pattern of MINIMIZING the details in both meetings Brown described. Yet they kept encouraging him to go the CAS himself to 'fess up, so how could they trust the father to give accurate details to the CAS?
Brown answered that Gower's minimizing of events did not raise concern.
From everything I've ever read about molesters.....when they minimize the gross acts they've committed upon children - they are not taking true responsibility for the harm they've caused. If they aren't willing to take responsibility, how can they understand and be repentent? It's just not logical.
Mr. Mark also asked: "isn't it evident that in that meeting that only lasted about 1 hour, that his minimizing of events was a true sign of non-repentance?" and that "couldn't Gower's display of repentance have been much like the Pharisee's who were good on the outside and bad on the inside?"
Brown just answered "I can't read minds. I can only look at the acts befitting repentance".
And, exactly, what were the child molester's "acts befitting repentance" at that time?
Hawkaw- Could you PLEASE send this page to Ronald.milmine@rogers .com
[email protected] he helps with the group-I am to illiterate
And, exactly, what were the child molester's "acts befitting repentance" at that time?
Waiting,
Why, "fruitages of the Spirit", of course. Which Mr. Brown apparently can read, by observing someone's meeting attendance, and involvement field service and other "Theocratic activities". Just like every other penny-ante Brooklyn-trained, greek/aramaic spouting, imagines-himself-a-scholar, arrogant spiritual shephard that the JW's push out of their cookie-cutter.
Mr. Mark on cross forced Brown to redefine the word "theocratic" into the pablum expression the JW's all accept, and confronted Brown with his own testimony of the stock convoluted, memorized JW definition of "porneia" with the simple question: "Doesn't it simply mean filth?" And Brown, with nowhere left to go but agree with his accuser, launched back into the stock convoluted, memorized JW definition of "porneia".
This sort of thing is not being lost on this Judge. I do believe her right eyebrow ascends when she is hearing something that doesn't jive with what she has previously heard.
On Brown's part, I noticed he used 'gestures for emphasis' quite well, but when under stress his right hand goes into his lap while his left hand pulls on his left facial cheek muscles, not his jowls but up on his cheek. Just an observation.
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It was really great to meet most everyone involved in bringing this trial so much media coverage. Hawkaw, you are doing such a great job that maybe nobody wants to bring a lesser effort to the party. It might feel a bit like standing in the background of the camera of Vicki's interview and waving.
The day decided something for me, in that after talking with the Andersons, and listening to Dr. Penton, I am convinced that the only way to go after the hidden files begins with media exposure, continues with trials in courts of law and results with sufficent cause for a proper investigation.
Hang in there, Vicki. Hang in there, Scott.
Hang the WTBS, and their self-protective deceit.
Eric
Thank you for posting that information.
Xandria
