Vicki Boer trial: Friday Sept 20

by expatbrit 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Some notes from the Vicki Boer trial today (Friday).

    The morning was taken up by testimony and cross examination of Dr. Silver, an expert witness in psychiatry called by Watchtower. The basic thrust of his testimony was to minimize the trauma experienced by Vicki during the four different interogations by the elders and confrontations with her abuser. Dr Silver went so far as to say that a victim's retelling the abuse was generally of benefit, and that this was what was done by psychiatrists to help in the healing process. "And do you force your patients to retell the abuse in front of their abuser?" we all wanted to scream out. Dr Silver also stated his viewpoint that the elders were good people trying to do their best.

    Cross examination of Dr. Silver was quite successful, imo. Mr Mark demonstrated quite successfully that Dr Silver had an incomplete knowledge of the circumstances during the crucial period of the confrontations. He also grilled Dr Silver on the fact of the non-reporting, despite the law that quite clearly uses the word "forthwith." Dr Silver fell back on the defence that in this circumstance he would wish to carry out an extensive examination of the victim before reporting because "you would not believe how many incidents reported turn out to be false" (paraphrased quote). Watchtower continually hide behind the excuse that Vicki was not a child at the time when they were aware of the abuse. Never do they acknowledge that Vicki's younger sister should have been considered as being at risk too, despite the 1988 letter that clearly states that molestors are notorious re-offenders.

    In the afternoon, Mr. Dieter (sp?) of the Canadian Branch Committee was examined. He was the contact at Bethel who gave instructions to the local elders. He gave the usual flat denials that he had at any time discouraged reporting or tried to cover up the abuse.

    When questioned on Matthew 18: 15-18, he stated that these verses only apply to financial matters, and certainly not to cases of child abuse. Ther reason he gave was that child abuse cannot be resolved by a face to face meeting. ("Then why all the meetings?" I wondered) Mr Mark on cross proceeded to fetch the court bible and emphasize that nowhere in the text of that chapter is there anything limiting the application of the procedures to specific types of wrongs. Mr. Dieter attempted to use context to justify the limited interpretation. He could not offer explanation as to why three different sources (including a C.O.) had noted him as instructing the use of Matthew 18 by Vicki. He denied flatly instructing this.

    When questioned on the Watchtower's three year statute of limitations, Mr Dieter stated that this does not apply to child abuse. The reason he gave was that with child abuse there would still be damage, whereas the three year limit only applies to cases such as two people having pre-marital sex and confessing years later, in which case there is no current reproach. (So for all you fornicators, just don't get caught for 3 years and you'll be OK). This contradicted Elder Brown's evidence, where Brown stated that they were reassured that they didn't have to report because the abuse took place years ago and Gower Palmer was making good "spiritual progress."

    Finally, Watchtower attempted to block testimony of plaintiff's rebutal witness. Watchtower lawyers said that the new evidence submitted by this witness should have been included from the beginning of the case. Mr Mark explained that he only found out about this witness and evidence during the case. Upon reflection, the Judge exercised her discretion and allowed the witness to testify, in the interests of having all the relevant evidence brought to light. So this witness will testify first thing Monday morning. And Watchtower, you filthy lying scum, when he does I sincerely hope his evidence hangs your putrid, dishonest carcasses up to rot, together with the pus-filled organization you call the true religion.

    I continue to be amazed at the inner strength shown by Vicki and Scott. I've attended the trial for only about three days in total, yet the tension and frustration at the Watchtower's underhand tactics, theocratic warfare and downright dishonest lying, has me feeling weary. I can only imagine what Vicki and Scott are going through. Whatever the verdict of this trial, they are heroes for exposing so much of the evil that is The Watchtower.

    Note: I have tried to be as accurate with my notes as possible, but they are based upon my memory.

    Expatbrit

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    Thanks for posting this. Just reading the notes, I can feel the hackles begin to rise. So much deviousness from those who purport to have truth and to be God's chosen people. Sickening.

  • JT
    JT

    thanks

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    's, Expat!

    Good of you to attend when possible, and nice of you to fill us in on the goings on (or should that be shenanigans?!).

    Can't wait to hear more about the mysterious rebuttal witness.

    Oh, and the judge DOES have a copy of that 1988 BOE letter, right? (I hope?)

    out

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Thanks for Posting this expatbrit!

    When questioned on Matthew 18: 15-18, he stated that these verses only apply to financial matters, and certainly not to cases of child abuse. Ther reason he gave was that child abuse cannot be resolved by a face to face meeting. ("Then why all the meetings?" I wondered) Mr Mark on cross proceeded to fetch the court bible and emphasize that nowhere in the text of that chapter is there anything limiting the application of the procedures to specific types of wrongs. Mr. Dieter attempted to use context to justify the limited interpretation. He could not offer explanation as to why three different sources (including a C.O.) had noted him as instructing the use of Matthew 18 by Vicki. He denied flatly instructing this.

    Here is some more Information and Quotes on the "Matthew 18:15-17" Rule:

    The Watchtower Society's own "Organized To Accomplish Our Ministry" Book (1983 and 1989 Editions) state that MATTHEW 18:15-17 ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY SEXUAL MATTERS!

    Here are the Quotes from the "Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry" Book which I found at http://watchtower.observer.org (I believe this Book is only given to Baptized Witnesses or Witnesses who are about to be Baptized, this Book's "Nickname" is the "Organization Book"):

    Organized To Accomplish Our Ministry Book (1983 and 1989 Editions), Chapter 12, Under the Sub-Heading "NOT OVERLOOKING SERIOUS WRONGS":

    When giving counsel, Jesus outlined some specific procedures for resolving problems of serious wrongdoing, such as fraud or slander, that arise between fellow Christians. Note the steps that he set out: "Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, [1] go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, [2] take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses, every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, [3] speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector." -Matt. 18:15-17.

    ...although serious, the offenses here discussed were limited in nature to such as could be settled between the individuals involved. This would not include such offenses as fornication, adultery, homosexuality, blasphemy, apostasy, idolatry and similar gross sins that should be reported to the elders and handled by them. When the Law covenant was in force, these sins required more than forgiveness from an offended individual. -1 Cor. 6:9, 10; Gal. 5:19-21.

    ...in view of the illustration that Jesus subsequently gave, as recorded in Matthew 18:23-35, the sins considered in Matthew 18:15-17 evidently were sins such as those involving financial or property matters--failure to make proper payment for something or some action involving a measure of fraud. The sin might damage one's reputation by actual slander. In these cases, if the offender recognized his wrong, expressed willingness to right it to the extent possible and sought forgiveness, the matter could be settled by the offended one's granting forgiveness. -Compare Matthew 5:25, 26.

    HOWEVER, in the November 1st 1995 Watchtower Issue (which is on the Official Watchtower.org Website at this Address: http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1995/11/1a/article_01.htm ), it states the following:

    What if the sufferer decides that he wants to make an accusation? (It may also be necessary for the step outlined in this paragraph to be taken if the matter has become common knowledge in the congregation.) Then the two elders can advise him that, in line with the principle at Matthew 18:15, he should personally approach the accused about the matter. If the accuser is not emotionally able to do this face-to-face, it can be done by telephone or perhaps by writing a letter. In this way the one accused is given the opportunity to go on record before Jehovah with his answer to the accusation. He may even be able to present evidence that he could not have committed the abuse. Or perhaps the one accused will confess, and a reconciliation may be achieved. What a blessing that would be! If there is a confession, the two elders can handle matters further in accordance with Scriptural principles.

    If the accusation is denied, the elders should explain to the accuser that nothing more can be done in a judicial way. And the congregation will continue to view the one accused as an innocent person. The Bible says that there must be two or three witnesses before judicial action can be taken. (2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19) Even if more than one person "remembers" abuse by the same individual, the nature of these recalls is just too uncertain to base judicial decisions on them without other supporting evidence. This does not mean that such "memories" are viewed as false (or that they are viewed as true). But Bible principles must be followed in establishing a matter judicially.

    What if the one accused though denying the wrongdoing is really guilty? Does he "get away with it," as it were? Certainly not! The question of his guilt or innocence can be safely left in Jehovah's hands. "The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men their sins also become manifest later." (1 Timothy 5:24; Romans 12:19; 14:12) The book of Proverbs says: "The expectation of the righteous ones is a rejoicing, but the very hope of the wicked ones will perish." "When a wicked man dies, his hope perishes." (Proverbs 10:28; 11:7) Ultimately, Jehovah God and Christ Jesus render everlasting judgment in justice. 1 Corinthians 4:5.

    And, I am pretty sure that A LOT OF ELDERS just used the "Matthew 18:15-17 Rule" on EVERYTHING that they WANTED TO USE IT ON!

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 21 September 2002 1:43:44

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Thanks Expat...

    Any idea on whether monday or tuesday would be a more preferable day to attend the trial next week? I'd like to try to make it one more day.

    Your recollections of Mr.Mark questioning Mr. Dieter about whether Matthew 18 is strictly limited to slander and business disagreements reminded me of when Mr. Mark put the same question to the elder (Brown?) on Monday and handed him the Bible to read the passage. It was sort of funny because we all knew there was nothing in the scripture that would indicate the limitations to slander and business disagreements and so did the elder who refused to even look at the Bible. He was reduced to saying that is how Jehovahs Witnesses understood the passage from what was printed in their publications.

    There certainly were times when you wished you could trade places with Mr.Mark and do a little cross-examining of your own. Instead you have alot of xjws almost pulling their hair out when you hear the carefully deceptive comments go by unaddressed.

    Path

  • Dia
    Dia

    Regarding Dr. Silver's testimony:

    Not only would the victim not be forced to tell their testimony 'in front of the abuser', they would not be FORCED to talk about it at all to anyone.

    It is a very basic nature of therapy and of healing that the victim is in control. Especially in the area of sexual abuse, where the crux of the matter is that their very basic right to have say-so over their own body and their own dignity has been ignored, manipulated, disregarded or snatched away from them.

    Dr. Silver can be easily discredited by almost any professional working in the field.

    His testimony reveals just one more bit of disregard and attempted discreditation of the victim on the part of the WTS.

    Edited by - Dia on 21 September 2002 7:10:16

    Edited by - Dia on 21 September 2002 7:14:50

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Path:

    I think Monday will be a far more interesting day to attend the trial. Specifically, Monday morning, when Watchtower's last witness and the rebuttal witness testifies. After that will be the summations. Mr Mark has indicated that his summation should be finish by the close of Monday. Watchtower counsel's summations will be on Tuesday, together with any other final stuff necessary.

    All in all, I would recommend being there on Monday morning. Trial starts at 10 am with song and prayer.

    Expatbrit

  • teenyuck
    teenyuck

    Thanks expat...great info.

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    Thanks Exbrit. I wish I could have been there.But my back is "out" I am so glad your filling us in-

    Dont you feel like 'puking" when you hear how they "twist" info....

    Frank Toth will be there on Monday ( I hear Didur said he didnt know him???) I wonder why anyone would write letters to folks you dont know???/ Weird!!!

    Please fill us in again ((((hug))

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