More loving than Jehovah?

by teejay 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • teejay
    teejay

    On another board, the question was asked: "Dear God, where were you 9-11-01?"

    During the ensuing discussion among other things I said:

    Believers who benefit from some good fortune (a rescue from a burning building or a
    victory in a pointless game) without fail credit god. OTOH, believers who suffer some
    mindless, inexplicable quirk of fate say that god is merely "testing them" or that "we
    can't know god's mind on every matter."

    As a parent, I can't relate to that kind of reasoning AT ALL. I will help my daughter
    every step of the way and will protect her from every harm, no matter how small. To
    stand and watch her suffer--when I can do SOMETHING to stop it--would be a
    heinous crime. Is that what god is? A criminal?

    During discussions like those, I normally can't help but draw mental comparisons between Jehovah's often baffling actions/INaction to the superior acts that humans might (usually) do when we are in similar situations. It never fails that I recall a quote from the Aid book that I first read close to 30 years ago. Here's the quote:
      Personal qualities revealed in creation.
      Certain facets of Jehovahs personality are revealed by his creative works even
      prior to his creation of man. (Ro 1:20) The very act of creation reveals his love.
      This is because Jehovah is self-contained, lacking nothing. Hence, although he
      created hundreds of millions of spirit sons, not one could add anything to his
      knowledge or contribute some desirable quality of emotion or personality that
      He did not already possess in superior degree
      .-Da 7:9, 10; Heb 12:22; Isa 40:13, 14;
      Ro 11:33, 34. -- Insight On The Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 14; also found in
      Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 889, par. 9 (1971 Edition)

    Even though I was a clueless teen I thought it was an extraordinary statement, and I've thought about it several times since then based on what was happening in my life and in the world. Juxtaposing that quote with the protective, not to mention PRO-active love I feel for my daughter and the palpable love I've seen other parents show for *their* children, I can't help but wonder if the Aid book quote is anywhere CLOSE to accurate. I have deathly serious doubts it is.

    When I see trouble looming in my daughter's path--no matter how small--I act in her behalf, helping her to never experience that fall from the three-foot-high bed or feel the burn of that cooking pot or the electric shock of that outlet. Just like countless other loving parents I've seen, I'm not apathetic or emotionally detached from her but act in her behalf with everything I have. When I can, I even do this for kids that AREN'T EVEN MINE.

    Of course, I'm not omniscient like Jehovah is and I don't have ten tousand times then thousand personal assistants at my beck and call 24/7. So, sometimes I'm not always aware of approaching threats to my Little One. Other times I see it a half-second too late so I don't react soon enough. In times like those, I'm there for her as soon as I can be to soothe the pain and do as much as I can to make it all better.

    CONCLUSION: Despite what the Aid/Insight book writer asserted, I really believe that the Jehovah of the bible could learn a thing or two about loving his children. One thing he needs to do is STOP looking for such instruction from all those spirit sons of his, since *they* don't know a darn thing about parenting, either.

    What might help him of Unmatchable Love is for him to look down here to Planet Earth and see what it means to be a Loving Parent. I have NO doubt that many of us can teach him a thing or two about the proper way to love your offspring. It's something he really needs to learn -- and the sooner the better.

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    One of the main reasons that I discount the JW religion is that I could never treat a son of mine the way that the Watchtower "god" treats his children.

    This whole thing about God demanding this, demanding that, that is taught by the likes of JW's, only serves to discredit God's name, the same name that they claim must be sanctified after painting him to be a vengeful Creator intent on destroying that very thing which he has created!

    Totally barmy IMHO, if I were God, I wouldn't pick the JW's to be my publicity agents!

    Englishman.

  • Faraon
    Faraon

    If anything we have to be more patient and understanding on why things happen and do our best to work in harmony with his will and puropose for us, whatever that might be.

    How was that again?

    When you can make life from non existence then you might be in a position to take HIM on.

    Even the mythological J did not create life from non-existence! It used existing materials.

    According to biblical myths he used dust to create land animals and water to create fish.

    It created birds from water or dust (whether you choose to believe Genesis 1 or 2, take your choice).

    It created a human female from living tissue. (Genesis does not address this issue with females from the animals)

    If you mean a life that did not exist previously, you create new life when you use your DNA in procreation, therefore you are also creating life from nonexistence.

  • teejay
    teejay

    Hey, Jim,

    If it weren't for the so-called 'sacred' writings--which are by no means beyond dispute--there would be scant evidence for believing in a creator/god. From that standpoint, I can only say that your response does nothing but make assumptions based on evidence that is flimsy at best.

    Please don't muddy the waters. I don't "blame God for all the problems" humans experience. I'm with you in knowing full well that many of the problems we face are self-inflicted. Still, that does little to explain god's inaction, unless one reaches the conclusion that there IS no god.

    A father/mother of many children will not sit back and watch them bring harm (and even destroy) each other. Not if they had the power to stop it. God, if s/he exists at all, has shown little compunction to lift a finger to ease humanity's misguided steps -- at least not since His Chosen People left Egypt 2500 years ago. If there is a god and s/he does in fact have "the insight for correcting the problems", on what do you base that assertion?

    Indulge me for a minute. You said:

    If anything we have to be more patient and understanding on why things
    happen and do our best to work in harmony with his will and puropose for us,
    whatever that might be.
    I can't tell you how weary I am of hearing that kind of statement that does not explain but only excuses a supposed all-powerful god's inaction in behalf of creatures he supposedly loves.

    It's one thing to be weary after twenty or thirty or fifty years of YOUR OWN suffering. It's quite another when one reflects on the thousands of years of human suffering all over the world THROUGHOUT HISTORY. When a believer (and I assume you are a believer) calls for patience, how long must a lifeform (humans) wait until their all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful Maker step in and bring relief?

    Then there is the matter of what exactly it means to, as you said, "work in harmony with his will and puropose for us, whatever that might be." The aforementioned "sacred writings" notwithstanding, what exactly *IS* the creator/god's 'will for us'? If you didn't have those holy books and were left to discover god's will simply from the standpoint of what life (as it unfolded in your life) told you, what would you say god's purpose was?

    That's were I am.

    While I don't fault *you* for doing so, I no longer give god a pass like I once did. Instead, I've chosen to look for evidence -- verifiable with the faculties that the same god supposedly gave me for my own protection and well-being: five senses aided by an unfettered mind. Based on this sort of hard, indisputable evidence, belief in god becomes a trivial, meaningless, waste of time. (see: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8379&site=3)

    When you can make life from non existence then you might be in a position to take HIM on.
    That is the wildest assumption you made. I won't bother to comment on it except to say that you have NO PROOF that "God", whoever that is to you, ever did any such thing.

    Point is, I stand by my original post: *If* there were a god, s/he *could* very well learn from observing human parents -- many thousands of whom show such a superior love for their offspring compared to it (god) that -- if these examples of love in ACTION weren't so beautiful and heartwarming to see -- would be almost tragic in light of god's apathy toward all of us.

  • Faraon
    Faraon

    If anything we have to be more patient and understanding on why things happen and do our best to work in harmony with his will and puropose for us , whatever that might be.

    Jim,

    How can you do your best to work in harmony with its will and purpose for us, if you don't even know what that its purpose isf or us ?

    How can you believe that this is (the true and only) god, when it has ignored other peoples and nations, and especially when Jesus said that he was sent ONLY for the lost sheep of Israel?

    From what I learned from the bible, it is its will to:

    Have people kill animals and burn them so he can have a rest.

    Kill anyone working on a Saturday.

    Kill anyone believing in other gods.

    Kill all female adulterers, but males only if they have sex with a married woman.

    Impregnate someone else's bride or wife.

    Kill your children if they are sassy to you.

    Enable males to sell their daughters into slavery.

    Yep, I learned about his love a long time ago.

    Edited by - faraon on 22 September 2002 18:46:21

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Hey Teejay,

    On another board, the question was asked: "Dear God, where were you 9-11-01?"

    That board was Bboyneko's. Why don't you name it at the start of your post? Hey, don't fuck another board man, name it.

    Greetings to "Lola"!!!

    IW

  • teejay
    teejay

    Jjrizo!

    Wow, dude! Take a pill, already!! I never said you had to prove anything. I only said you had NO PROOF. Big difference.

    I also said earlier (and you failed to address) that:

      many of the problems we face are self-inflicted but that does little to explain god's inaction;

      God has shown little compunction to lift a finger to ease humanity's misguided steps for the last 2500 years;

      it's one thing to be weary after twenty or thirty or fifty years of YOUR OWN suffering. It's quite another when one reflects on the thousands of years of human suffering all over the world THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

    I also asked you:
    what exactly *IS* the creator/god's 'will for us'? If you didn't have those holy books and were left to discover god's will simply from the standpoint of what life (as it unfolded in your life) told you, what would you say god's purpose was?
    You didn't say.

    As you said to me, I will say to you:

    You can believe what you want, bottom line is are you happy with you lot in life, and your belief system whatever that may be.

    I'm not trying to convert you and you can't convert me to you way of thinking, it will all comes out in the wash and I'm not worried.

    In this, we are in FULL agreement. I have no religion or 'belief system' that I hope to persuade others to embrace. I simply question the one I formerly held, one with many substantial holes. And not just of the JW variety, but big Christian, bible-believing holes. That's all.

    I have no problem with the expectation or reality of people disagreeing with me. (I could be wrong but it seems *to me* that it's you that has the greater problem with that.) It is a rare event when someone comes along to agree with teejay on any of these threads. To that fact I only shrug my shoulders and say, "What else is new?"

    Peace.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Faraon said:

    Even the mythological J did not create life from non-existence! It used existing materials.

    According to biblical myths he used dust to create land animals and water to create fish.

    It created birds from water or dust (whether you choose to believe Genesis 1 or 2, take your choice).

    It created a human female from living tissue. (Genesis does not address this issue with females from the animals)

    If you mean a life that did not exist previously, you create new life when you use your DNA in procreation, therefore you are also creating life from nonexistence.

    Well, God created the dust, God created the water, God created the Earth, God created the animals, God created the humans, God created the angels, God created the Universe, so I don't really understand your point, Faraon.

    GOD CREATED EVERYTHING!

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    LOL,

    Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth;
    Genesis 1:2: and the Earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters,
    Genesis 1:3: then God said, Let light be! And there was light.
    Genesis 1:4: And God saw the light, that it was good, and God separated between the light and darkness.
    Genesis 1:5: And God called the light, Day. And He called the darkness, Night. And there was evening, and there was morning the first day.
    Genesis 1:6: And God said, Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be dividing between the waters and the waters.
    Genesis 1:7: And God made the expanse, and He separated between the waters which were under the expanse and the waters which were above the expanse. And it was so.
    Genesis 1:8: And God called the expanse, Heavens. And there was evening, and there was morning the second day.
    Genesis 1:9: And God said, Let the waters under the Heavens be collected to one place, and let the dry land appear. And it was so.
    Genesis 1:10: And God called the dry land, Earth. And He called the collection of the waters, Seas. And God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:11: And God said, Let the Earth sprout tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed, the fruit tree producing fruit according to its kind, whichever seed is in it on the Earth. And it was so.
    Genesis 1:12: And the Earth bore tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed according to its kind, and the fruit tree producing fruit according to its kind, whichever seed is in it. And God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:13: And there was evening, and there was morning the third day.
    Genesis 1:14: And God said, Let luminaries be in the expanse of the Heavens, to divide between the day and the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years.
    Genesis 1:15: And let them be for luminaries in the expanse of the Heavens, to give light on the Earth. And it was so.
    Genesis 1:16: And God made the two great luminaries: the great luminary to rule the day, and the small luminary and the stars to rule the night.
    Genesis 1:17: And God set them in the expanse of the Heavens, to give light on the Earth,
    Genesis 1:18: and to rule over the day and over the night; and to divide between the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:19: And there was evening, and there was morning the fourth day.
    Genesis 1:20: And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarmers having a soul of life; and let the birds fly over the Earth, on the face of the expanse of the Heavens.
    Genesis 1:21: And God created the great sea animals, and all that creeps, having a living soul, which swarmed the waters, according to its kind; and every bird with wing according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:22: And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas; and let the birds multiply in the Earth.
    Genesis 1:23: And there was evening, and there was morning the fifth day.
    Genesis 1:24: And God said, Let the Earth bring forth the soul of life according to its kind: cattle, and creepers, and its beasts of the Earth, according to its kind. And it was so.
    Genesis 1:25: And God made the beasts of the Earth according to its kind, and cattle according to its kind, and all creepers of the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:26: And God said, let Us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the Heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the Earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the Earth.
    Genesis 1:27: And God created the man in His own Image; in the Image of God He created him. He created them male and female.
    Genesis 1:28: And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the Earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the seas, and over birds of the Heavens, and over all beasts creeping on the Earth.
    Genesis 1:29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every plant seeding seed which is on the face of all the Earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree seeding seed; it shall be food for you.
    Genesis 1:30: And to every beast of the Earth, and to all birds of the Heavens, and to every creeper on the Earth which has in it a living soul, every green plant is for food. And it was so.
    Genesis 1:31: And God saw everything that He had made and behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.
    Genesis 2:1: And the Heavens and the Earth were finished, and all their host.
    Genesis 2:2: And on the seventh day God completed His work which He had made. And He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.
    Genesis 2:3: And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because He rested from all His work on it, which God had created to make.
    Genesis 2:4: These are the generations of the Heavens and of the Earth when they were created in the day that Jehovah God was making Earth and Heavens.
    Genesis 2:5: And every shrub of the field was not yet on the Earth, and every plant of the field had not yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not sent rain on the Earth, and there was no man to till the ground.
    Genesis 2:6: And mist went up from the Earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
    Genesis 2:7: And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

  • DJ
    DJ

    Yeh, so there! ....what he said.

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