How to get JWs to listen and REALLY think about TTATT...

by C0ntr013r 14 Replies latest jw experiences

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  C0ntr013r

  I have been trying to discuss and reason with JWs about their beliefs for some time now and it usually ends in "agree to disagree". I just don't feel like I am getting anywhere, they get their guard up super easy and will dismiss anything no matter how logical or factual.

  So the other day I tried another tactic, instead of arguing for another point of view I started to agree with them. This made them much more talkative and open, their guard went away somewhat. I let them control the conversation which went from one topic to the next whenever it became unconformable. (my goal was not to win a debate or have them agree with me)

  The trick I came up with was to expose their fallacies but then agree with the conclusion. It is like a respectful and serious mocking.

  Example:

  Me: "So the food from the governing body is only from God if it is true? And Jehovah let them make the mistake if it is not true? That makes sense, Jehovah himself would not make a mistake. That is a good way to know if it is actually from God :)

  *JW staring into noting for a little while*

  JW: "Yes... Well, maybe Jehovah want to trick the demons by letting the governing body make mistakes?

  Me: "Yeah, that makes sense. That way Jehovah can outsmart them and win! :)

  *more silence*

  JW: "Well, the demons probably think they can win but they really can't"

  Me: "Oh yeah, you are right. I did not think of that"

  JW: "Yeah..."

  *JW changing the subject*

  This method was used whenever I could think of a good way to expose their flawed thinking through the entire conversation.

  I felt the conversation was very fruitful and pleasant. Instead of me asking the difficult questions and arguing for them the JW asked them of himself. I just kept on pointing out how ridiculous his view was by agreeing with him. It was hard to do but I agreed with pretty much everything he said, I am not so sure he did the same :P

  I do believe that the person has to be somewhat intelligent to see the problems for themselves and you most not let them know that you are "mocking" them.

  I have not tried this extensively so I don't know what kind of results it will yield but my first experience was positive so I felt like sharing it with you guys, maybe some of you will have some use for this "method" ;)
• 

  Ding

  How would you use this technique if they presented you with the WT's 1914 chronology, 2520 years after 607 BCE, etc.?
  
• 

  C0ntr013r

  Ding

  
  

  I don't think I would. Since 1914/607 is based on misinformation and not logical thinking.

  
  

  I would probably ask them how it can be said that Israel was desolated for 70 years when Nebuzaradan brought 700 more Jews to Babylon in Nebuchadnezzar’s 23 year (5 years after 607). (Jeremiah 52:28-30) And if they agree with that you can show them from Jeremiah that it was actually 70 years for Babylon (Jeremiah 29:10), not 70 years of desolation. Then you can use the bible to prove that Jerusalem fell 587.

  
  

  Good YouTube series that explains it all in detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T826mTyle7Q

  
  

  The method in my OP is dealing with logical problems, not factual once.
• 

  Crazyguy

  I think your way just adds to thier delusion. Asking questions to get them to think maybe the only way to wake one up. In most cases they still will not wake up unless they are experiencing some emotional trauma that gets them to question things. That's what happened to me and a friend I helped wake up.
• 

  tim3l0rd

  Almost all JWs have some form of emotional trauma somewhere in their past. My trauma was almost a decade old and I had buried it deep down. When my brother (raised around JWs) expressed a sincere interest in becoming a JW, I was excited to help him. He, not being weighed down by GB rules on apostate material, researched the heck out of JWs the same way he does everything else. He came to me with so many questions, but with a sincerity for the truth.

  The trauma I had experienced so long ago resurfaced and something clicked. I realized that I couldn't help him to become a JW until I answered questions that I had suppressed so many years ago.

  The take away for me is that many JWs have seen or experienced injustice in the congregations. Asking questions that help them think can cause past experiences to resurface and open them up to questioning their beliefs.
• 

  C0ntr013r

  Crazyguy

  
  

  I have tried the other ways and they have not worked, so I thought it would be worth a shot. Since the outcome felt positive I wanted to share it, it really felt like the JW where thinking about it. They probably wont tell you but if they pause and consider, that is more progress than I usually see.

  
  

  Asking questions that make them think has in my experience mostly made them put up their guard and dismiss everything you say. It is hard to ask a question that makes them question the validity of their religion without having the question labeled as "apostate thinking".

  
  

  I don't think it will add to their delusion unless they can't see the problem with their own logic, hence the person has to be somewhat intelligent. I am not telling them that I believe as they do but that I agree with their flawed reasoning. And trying to point out that it is flawed so they see it themselves.

  
  

  One way of thinking about it is that I become the defender of their religion(doing a really bad job at it of course) and they start looking for holes in it, because you are presenting holes for them to find. It is not this blatant but it is similar.
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  Vidiot

  At a certain point in their exit, a lot of XJWs feel compelled to explain their decisions to their still-in families and friends.

  I grasped even before I started fading that it would be a waste of time, and skipped that step.

  I recommend anyone else do the same.

  (Of course, moving around a lot at the time helped.)
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  C0ntr013r

  As a side note.

  If asking questions to make your JW loved once wake up is working for you, keep using that method! If it is not broken, don't fix it! ;)
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  C0ntr013r

  Vidiot

  
  

  I actually did explain it to my family and they understood me, they don't agree but they understand. Depends on your family I guess.
• 

  Mary J Blige

  My dad was telling me about cult mind control - the book by Steve Hassan helped him to understand why the defense and how to get the point across without negative reinforcement.

  Dad's observations were that close long time family and friends were instantly dismissive with the apostate label but those who were academic of mind (research driven and/or had higher education) either were easy to reason with or would step through the facts to arrive at the same point: they couldn't reconcile the truth of the bible with the teachings of the WT.

  Dad's experience has also been that of those who are "in" and "get it" , it is the fear of losing by leaving that keep them in rather than them being ignorant of the facts.

  I think that method of questioning in a conversational manner is correct though - in terms of building rapport and trust ones defenses will be let down. If they see it or not after that point....

  But dear Lord - give me patience!!