I'm not a JW, but i've got some questions.

by iamtaylormh 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

refiners fire

Hey Undiss..
1984 -- Because the Watchtower Society at one time said that "A Generation" lasts 70 years, and 1914 + 70 years is 1984
1994 -- Because the Watchtower Society at one time said that "A Generation" lasts 80 years, and 1914 + 80 years is 1994
Im not aware the Watchtower actually made predictions for those dates. Was there EXPECTATION among the brothers? Just curious, I been out a long time.Then theres this, something of a fabrication classic, I didnt think they did shit like this anymore....
....a work that would be completed in our 20th century,".
HOWEVER, in the Bound Volume Reprint, they CHANGED IT TO SAY:
"...a work that would be completed in our day,"......
The problem with stuff like this, is...the old stuff disappears, and only the updated version remains for future reference. 30 years down the track, the evidence they ever said the original statement is GONE forever. Classic fabrication. Good one.
Edited by - refiners fire on 29 September 2002 7:25:3
Cygnus

: Is Jesus Christ a TRUE GOD or a FALSE GOD?
I give myself a dollar every time I hear that claptrap. Thanks.
onestepcloser

i don't believe that JW's are the happiest ppl on earth. my mother is a JW and is one of the unhappiest ppl i know. she was disfellowshiped, then reinstated about a year and a half later. i lived my life for as long as i can remember as a JW. i was never baptised, and in may this year i was kicked out (i am 17 years old), BY my mother who is supposed to be loving and caring, because i didn't want to be a JW. my family that are JW's won't talk to me, exept for my sister, brother and my mother. my brother is being brainwashed in to all this crap. my mother told him that in the "new system" he will have a new puppy and kitten to replace mine that were hit by cars, that he can have as many pets as he wants. i know that she is brainwashing him, because she tried the same thing on me. and even though my mother live as a JW, she is a sour, backstabbing, self centered, hypocritical, lying woman. as are the elders in her congregation. i now live with my father, which by my whole family, JW or not, is an unforgivable sin. i smoke which is yet again un unforgivable sin, and i date boys which is probably even worse that the other two put together, because as far as the JW organisation is concerned, i am not yet ready for marraige. the JW's are mind controlling jerks, who when they loose control over someone freak out and disfellowship them so that no one else in the organisation can find out other view points on the cult.
jcbeliever

I thought your comment about being a "religious" person but not having an idea what you believe was interesting. You are wise to investigate what a religion is about before turning to it but I would challenge you to do something even more. Research the different religions (from the library if necessary - there are sure to be many books that outline the basic tenants of many different religions), then compare what the Bible says about things (along with a biblical commentary for basic understanding about how the passages where intended) to that of the other religions. Better yet, go one step further. Begin by praying that IF there IS One True God, that He will open up your eyes to the Truth. I would be interested in hearing what you find.
Anastasis

Hi UnDisfellowshipped,
In the English language "God" is an odd alienated word. It is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god. But really, the Hebrew words Eloah/Elohim/El etc. means might, mighty one or mighty ones. So a human being can most certainly be God, ie. be mighty. A fine example is found in Ezekiel 31:11 where King Nebucadnezar is called God of the heathens by God himself. This is hidden by most translaters that renders it "mighty one" for once. But the Hebrew word here is "El" and that is the exact same word used in Isaiah 43:10 where "God" (well what can I do..? hard to change such a tradition) tells us that He is the only El aswell as the only Saviour in verse 11, which is perfectly true, Jesus needed to be saved and needed God (Heb. 5:7). Likewise Solomon is called God (mighty one) in Ps. 45:7 and Hezekiah Mighty God (rather brave/valiant mighty one) in Isa. 9:6. Angels are called Gods in Ps. 8:5 (compare to Heb. 2:7).
Being mighty is really something very difficult to measure. To an ancient person the argument of trinitarians arguing that there is only one God in all contexts, wouldnt put anything put a smile on his face. The problem is made by mens tradition and theology, not by the Bible that always require of its readers to study it hard and be careful what to conclude. We humans accept a human being is mighty and so much more is a heavenly angel, yet he is not to God. YHWH is the supreme God, he is also the only "real/true" God. That is the exact point of Jesus in John 17:3 where He addresses God as the only true God. The only real powerful one or as David simply puts it in Ps. 36:9, God owns the source of Life. He has that power than made it possible for Him to give Jesus life in himself (John 5:26).
Hope this solves the problem.
God Bless

Edited by - Anastasis on 9 October 2002 13:9:35
Anastasis

Hi UnDisfellowshipped,
I hard like to go a bit further with you. You seem to do the same thing as the JWs, take Scriptures out of context. That's a devestating thing to do. Scriptures must be read rationally and with a sober mind. We need to collect data and conclude. Which mighty ones do you think YHWH speaks of in that verse you quote? His angels? No. The mighty ones people serve instead of God? Most certainly, men and piles of wood or stone. Jesus and the angels on the other hand, work pro God. Notice the statement in 2 Cor. 5:17; "God (one being) was in Christ (another being, a man of flesh and blood) reconciling the world". Through his Spirit presence, he was inside Christ.
God Bless
UnDisfellowshipped

Anastasis,
Thank you very much for your comments.
I definitely do not want (and I am most certainly not intentionally) taking any Scriptures out of context (that's one of the things I REALLY DISLIKED about the Watchtower Society).
I am going to try and post a reply to your comments very soon, I would love to discuss this more with you.
Also, I see that you have started a separate Thread ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38352&site=3) for this, that is cool! I will be posting my replies on that Thread as well.
However, here are some Scriptures, which, in my opinion, seem to be stating that Christ Jesus is the SUPREME GOD (these Scriptures are from the "Literal Translation of the Holy Bible"):
Revelation 1:7: "Behold, He comes with the clouds," and "every eye will see Him, and the ones who pierced" Him, and all the tribes of the Earth "will wail on account of Him." Yes, Amen. (See Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 12:10)
Revelation 1:8: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, the One who is, and who was, and who is Coming, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:10: I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation 1:11: saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last; also, What you see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven Assemblies of Asia: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.
Revelation 1:12: And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me.
Revelation 1:13: And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, having been clothed to the feet, and having been girded with a golden girdle at the breasts.
Revelation 1:14: And the hairs of His head were white as white wool, as snow, and His eyes as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15: and His feet like burnished brass having been fired in a furnace; and His voice as a sound of many waters;
Revelation 1:16: and having in His right hand seven stars; and a sharp, two-edged sword proceeding out of His mouth, and His face shining as the sun in its power.
Revelation 1:17: And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last,
Revelation 1:18: and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to Hell, and of Death.
Revelation 2:8: And to the angel of the Assembly of Smyrna, write: These things says the First and the Last, Who became dead, and lived
Revelation 21:5: And the One sitting on the throne said, Behold! I make all things new. And He says to me, Write, because these Words are faithful and true.
Revelation 21:6: And He said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending. To the one thirsting, I will freely give of the fountain of the Water of Life.
Revelation 21:7: The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me.
Revelation 22:12: And, behold, I am Coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as his work is.
Revelation 22:13: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.
Revelation 22:16: I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the Assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.
Psalms 136:1: O give thanks to Jehovah, for He is good; for His mercy endures forever.
Psalms 136:2: O give thanks to the God of gods; for His mercy endures forever.
Psalms 136:3: O give thanks to the Lord of lords; for His mercy endures forever;
1st Timothy 6:14: that you keep the Commandment spotless, blameless, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1st Timothy 6:15: who in His own time will reveal the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1st Timothy 6:16: the only One having immortality, living in light that cannot be approached, whom no one of men saw, nor can see; to whom be honor and everlasting might. Amen.
Revelation 17:14: These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and the ones with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones.
Revelation 19:16: And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name having been written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Jeremiah 23:5: Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will raise to David a Righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and act wisely, and He shall do justice and righteousness in the Earth.
Jeremiah 23:6: In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely. And this is His Name by which He shall be called, Jehovah our Righteousness.
Zechariah 3:1: And he made me see Joshua the High Priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
Zechariah 3:2: And Jehovah said to Satan, Jehovah rebuke you, Satan! And, Jehovah who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?
John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2: He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3: All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
John 20:27: Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and thrust into My side, and be not unbelieving, but believing.
John 20:28: And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! (The actual Greek Text says "THE LORD OF ME AND THE GOD OF ME")
John 20:29: Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed. Blessed are the ones not seeing, and believing.
Psalm 45:6: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your Kingdom is a scepter of uprightness.
Psalm 45:7: You love righteousness and hate wickedness; on account of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your fellows.
Hebrews 1:1: In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the Prophets;
Hebrews 1:2: in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;
Hebrews 1:3: who being the Shining Splendor of His Glory, and the Express Image of His Essence, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty On High, (See Psalm 110:1)
Hebrews 1:4: having become so much better than the angels, He has inherited a Name more excellent than they.
Hebrews 1:5: For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son; today I have begotten You"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me." (See Psalm 2:7)
Hebrews 1:6: And again, when He brought the First-Born into the world, He said, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
Hebrews 1:7: And as to the angels, He said, "Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;" (See LXX-Psalm 103:4 and MT-Psalm 104:4)
Hebrews 1:8: but as to the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom;
Hebrews 1:9: You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows." (See Psalm 45:6 and 7)
Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord, at the beginning founded the Earth, and the Heavens are works of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:11: They will vanish away, but You will continue; and they will all become old, like a garment,
Hebrews 1:12: and You shall fold them up like a covering, and they shall be changed. But You are the Same, and Your years shall not fail." (See LXX-Psalm 101:26-28 and MT-Psalm 102:25-27)
Hebrews 1:13: But to which of the angels did He ever say, "Sit at My right hand until I place Your enemies as a footstool of Your feet?" (See LXX-Psalm 109:1 and MT-Psalm 110:1)
Hebrews 1:14: Are they not all ministering spirits for service, being sent out because of the ones being about to inherit salvation?
Isaiah 7:14: So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a Son; and she shall call His Name Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23: "Behold! The virgin will conceive in her womb and will bear a Son, and they will call His Name Emmanuel" (which translated is, God with us). (See Isaiah 7:14)
Isaiah 9:6: For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the Government is on His shoulder; and His Name is called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7: There is no end to the increase of His Government and of peace on the throne of David, and on His Kingdom, to order it, and to sustain it with justice and with righteousness, from now and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts will do this.
Isaiah 10:20: And it shall be in that day, the remnant of Israel, and the escaped ones from the house of Jacob, shall not any more lean on him who struck him. But they will truly lean on Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 10:21: The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.
1st Timothy 3:16: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in Flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in Glory.
Titus 2:13: looking for the blessed hope and Appearance of the Glory of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:14: who gave Himself on our behalf, "that He might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify a special people for Himself," zealous of good works. (See Psalm 130:8 and Ezekiel 37:23 and Deuteronomy 14:2)
Titus 2:15: Speak these things and exhort and convict with all authority. Let no one despise you.
2nd Peter 1:1: Simon Peter, a slave and Apostle of Jesus Christ, to those equally precious with us, having obtained Faith in the righteousness of our God and our Savior, Jesus Christ
Acts 20:28: Then take heed to yourselves and to all the Flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the Assembly of God which He purchased through His own Blood.
Jude 1:4: For certain men stole in, those of old having been written before to this judgment, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God into unbridled lust, and denying the Only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:12: giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the Saints in light,
Colossians 1:13: who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of His Love,
Colossians 1:14: in whom we have redemption through His Blood, the remission of sins;
Colossians 1:15: who is the Image of the Invisible God, the First-Born of all creation.
Colossians 1:16: For all things were created in Him, the things in the Heavens, and the things on the Earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17: And He is before all things, and all things have subsisted in Him.
Colossians 1:18: And He is the Head of the Body, the Assembly, who is the Beginning, the First-Born out of the dead, that He be preeminent in all things;
Colossians 1:19: because all the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him,
Colossians 1:20: and through Him making peace by the Blood of His Cross, to reconcile all things to Himself; through Him, whether the things on the Earth, or the things in the Heavens.
Colossians 2:9: For in Him dwells all the Fullness of the Godhead (Deity, or Divine Nature and Essence of God) Bodily;
Colossians 2:10: and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority
Revelation 4:8: And the four living creatures each one had six wings around, and within being full of eyes. And they had no rest day and night, saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty," the One who was, and is, and is coming! (See Isaiah 6:3)
Revelation 4:9: And whenever the living creatures shall give glory and honor and thanks to the One sitting on the throne, to the One living to the ages of the ages,
Revelation 4:10: the twenty four elders fall down before Him sitting on the throne; and they will worship the One living to the ages of the ages, and will throw their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 4:11: Lord, You are worthy to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because You created all things, and through Your will they exist and were created.
Revelation 5:6: And I saw, and behold, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, was a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, having been sent out into all the Earth.
Revelation 5:7: And He came and took the Scroll out of the right hand of Him sitting on the throne.
Revelation 5:8: And when He took the Scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the Saints.
Revelation 5:9: And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy are You to receive the Scroll, and to open its Seals, because You were slain, and by Your Blood purchased us to God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Revelation 5:10: and made us Kings and Priests to our God; and we shall reign over the Earth.
Revelation 5:11: And I saw, and I heard a sound of many angels around the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders, and their number was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
Revelation 5:12: saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.
Revelation 5:13: And every creature which is in Heaven, and in the Earth, and underneath the Earth, and the things that are on the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.
Revelation 5:14: And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the twenty four elders fell down and worshiped the One living forever and ever.
There are MORE Scriptures I would like to discuss with you, and here is a Thread I made on this subject a while back, and I posted A LOT of Scriptures on that Thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36024&site=3
Anastasis

UnDisfellowshipped,
First your verses from Revelations. First of all, let us eliminate the addition of "Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 1:11. Christ can be called all God is called, as he has become his namebearer (GIVEN the name above all Phil. 2:9), but we dont need to make up more than we have. Notice in 1:17-18 and 2:8 that Jesus is said to have been dead. God obviously can't die, nor can he be the firstborn of the dead (Col. 1:18). Christ was truly dead and shared Adamic condemnation as it said that dead had dominion over him (Rom. 6:9), made in all things like his brethern, that he could make the devil/sin powerless (Heb. 2:17).
Remaining problem may be Rev. 22:13, 16. God is certainly not the root and offspring of David. Some see this as God speaking through Jesus' mouth just like God speaks through Jeremiah's mouth in Jeremiah 1:8-9 etc. Personally, I don't see why Jesus should be speaking in verse 13. Why would he present himself in verse 16 then and.. in that same chapter we also have John and an angel speaking. Clearly, in the Bible, it's not that important which temple God speaks through, he declares his will whether speaking to the mind of people or through prophets or angels.
Psalms 136:1-3, 1st Timothy 6:14-16, Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:16. I sense the problem here is that you once again assign a title to be a name.
Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. (KJV)
Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people (ASV)
It is up the translator whether he will put a "a" before a title. God surely calls Nebuchadrezzar king of kings as he also calls him God, because he was indeed a very mighty man. As we see from Phil. 2:9 Jesus can use all titles God holds, also titles greater than king of kings.
Jeremiah 23:5-6. A name once more. Look up a Jewish King called Jehu. That means "Jehovah is he". So that is not worth much for a trinitarian prooftext, but it gives light to Micah 5:4; "He will reign in the name of YHWH, his God".
I miss yoir point about Zecheriah 3:1-2 other than the fact that the angel voices the rebuke of Satan.
John 1 may be a issue on its own. The word of God is often personified in the OT. Forinstance we have Isa. 55:11 where the Word of God comes out of God's mouth and carry out a task for him. God's word became flesh (verse 14), in Genesis 1 God creates by speaking. John 1 is a close personification of Jesus' divine work like "I am the life and resurrrection" (John 11:25). The Bible declares that Jesus was born in Bethelem and thus I don't find Jesus in existence in the OT.
John 20:28 shows Thomas declaring Jesus to be his Lord and mighty one. He is after all the Son of God. The difficulty here of cause is that people take God to be a name, which it is not. However, none come to the Father without the mediator (1 Tim. 2:5) and then to Thomas, Jesus was surely in that moment as great as God, as he was God's temple. Again, context.
Ps. 45:7-8 I have already spoken of. Here we have a mighty one that has a mighty one himself. Thus one is more mighty than the other. The Psalm is originally written to Solomon, but Hebrews applies it to Christ to show his Davidic royal line. Notice also that it is the throne that is eternal.
Hebrews 1 is interesting. Notice that it says Jesus became higher than angels (verse 4) thus he was lower than angels before (Heb. 2:7). The sole problem Hebrews 1 gives is that Heb. 1:10-12 pr. tradition is understood to be applied to the Son, but it quotes Ps. 102 where a believer addresses YHWH while Heb. 1:5, 8-9 (verse 8-9 quotes Ps. 45:6-7) addresses the Son of David, which God speaks to. We also miss an "an again to the Son", instead we get "and thou Lord / LORD", which indicates that the writer simply addresses God. Then in verse 13 he takes on the subject of what God says once again. That way we get the same impression as in 1 Tim. 1:12-17, Paul praises Jesus and then ends with praising the God of all.
Isaiah 7:14, Matt. 1:23. Read about what Jehu means once again. Add with this;
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
God was in Christ, Christ was/will again at his 2nd coming be God's walking temple.
Isaiah 9-10. What is the difference between returning to Jesus and to God? Does Jesus run his own business? No. Besides Isa. 9:6 was originally applied to Hezekiah. Both Hezekiah (a king that was a blessing replacing his evil father), Jesus and God can be called brave mighty ones, which is much better rendering than the clumbsy Mighty God (mighty one). Tjeck out a concordance on this verse.
1 Timothy 3:16, the addition of "God" is spurious yet it is true as such, since Jesus manifested God. "He that has seen the Father, has seen me".
The renderings of Titus 2:13, 2nd Peter 1:1, Acts 20:28, Jude 1:4 are all manipulated. Tjeck the footnote to each of this verses, they all offer "alternative" renderings, which doesnt seem to support what this seems to support. As for Acts 20:28 I would say though that the blood of Christ is the blood of God, God himself does as he is Spirit not have any human blood.
Col 1-2. It is a strange rendering of 1:19 you have. See the KJV;
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Your rendering took out Father, which I find fascinating. Here you got the explenation on 2:9 too, It pleased God to give all authority to Christ, excluded his own as logic says and 1 Cor. 15:27 also says. A lot more can be said, Christ is called an image and the firstborn of the dead, all indicating that he was made.
Rev. 4. Notice the Lamb is not sitting on that throne. The lamb is duely worshipped together with God in chapter 5, even far more than David was worshipped along with God in 1 Chron. 29:20.
If you want to discuss further, shorten things down. Im not into marathon discussions and it seems like Im the one that is to do the work here while you just spam verses.
God Bless
Edited by - Anastasis on 10 October 2002 17:49:38

I'm not a JW, but i've got some questions.

Share this