by Xandria 58 Replies latest jw friends
Rem it's not about censorship, corperations are free to sell what they want, and NOT sell what they want. Ultimattetly the consumer decides, if lot's of people stop doing business with them because of this, how fast do you think they'd yank it?
Of the Understands Economics Class.
I thought Amazon had already agreed, a couple of years ago, that it was NOT going to sell pornography.
I haven't seen the book, but since the activity described would be considered illegal in every state in the U.S., I would be hard-pressed to understand how this is not covered under the promise that they made.
I would suggest talking to the FBI and others legally concerned about sexual crimes against children.
I understand the free-speech thing and yes, I agree with it (because I have to).
Still, the sale of other types of material (like promoting 'hate crimes' or racial hatred) has been stopped (just try to find a copy of "Civil War II, The Coming Break-Up of America" - you can barely find it outside of a Militia site).
All I'm saying is that, free speech aside, it can be stopped.
It doesn't mean no one can ever get it. They can if they really want to.
They just shouldn't be able to get it from a place that is a 'cornerstone of civil rights and civilization', as both Amazon and Barnes and Nobel are, in my opinion.
Go get 'em, boys (and girls).
Meanwhile, yes, you can leave your comments at Amazon. Why not?
Edited by - country girl on 29 September 2002 9:3:11
Country Girl,
I'm not going to slam you. However, as a survivor of incest I must take issue with a couple of statements you made.
But pedophilia is not against the law
That's sort of an argument of semantics isn't it? It's a bit like the Witnesses saying there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual, but if you practice homosexuality then that is a sin. In reality, not a dictionary, there is no difference between pedophilia and child molestation. I was in therapy for 6 years to recover from what my pedophile did to me. One of my psychologists also treated, at least for a time, pedophiles. Once I asked her about offenders and what their mind set is when they hurt children. She said treating a pedophile is very difficult. According to her, they are very self-centered, narcisstic and unconcerned about anyone other than themselves. Oftentimes the pedophile experienced abuse in his childhood, but rather than being horrified or repulsed by it they embraced it. She said they will often identify with the power their abuser held over them and now that they are an adult wish to exercise that same power. They are out of control but use control over children as a way to avoid dealing with their own issues. She also said they are cowards, and will not take responsibility for their hideous acts. One pedophile told her how he selects his victim: he looks for the child that is most needy, oftentimes off by themselves away from other children or adults. He told her how it delighted him to "wipe that smile off their face". According to this same psychologist, she said she's never once seen a pedophile seek treatment on his own. It always came as the result of their capture and was part of their sentence and/or probation.
There are very few things truly evil in this world. Pedophiles are evil. They do not change. Ever. They continue to hurt and abuse until they are confined. When they are released, they will begin to abuse again; and again; and again; and again. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.
Has anyone read this book?
Is what it says really illegal? Or is it pseudo-science trying to justify pedophilia... there is a BIG difference. I'm saying it is censorship when a bookseller forces morals on the public. Just because a book describes illegal acts doesn't mean that it is immoral... what of the many murder mystery books or books about the "perfect crime". Should we boycott bookstores for selling them too? I think people are jumping to conclusions.
Is it really pornography... are there illegal pictures in the book? Again... has anyone read this book so as to have an educated opinion whether the book is really as bad as it seems?
rem
Well Rem you've proven you have no concept of what freedom of speach is, this is not a state owned entitity, it's privately owned. Would you open your home to NAMBLA meetings? Can the government force you to do so? This is the same thing, the government CAN NOT force you to sell something you don't want to, nobody here has said ban the book, they are simply talking with they're pocket book, the person has the right to publish they're book, however they DON'T have the right to force someone to sell it!
This book is a good example of the perversion of the concept of Free Speech. Free Speech as envisioned by the Founding Fathers of the United States did not include the trashing of the human condition.
If it is against the law to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre because it may endanger lives, why should it be lawful to promote other kinds of speech which also endangers lives? What sense does it make to allow speech which encourages violence, whether sexual or otherwise, against individuals or groups? For instance music which encourages violence against women or a minority, should that really be protected as Free Speech? Please, this is a perversion of our most precious right!
This book has nothing to do with Free Speech. It is about Free Child Sex and Money.
IW
If you really want to make waves, write to Oprah and tell her Jeff Bazos (sp?) is selling PRO-pedophile books thru HIS company, Amazon.com. (Jeff is the founder/owner/creator of Amazon.com. He and Oprah are buddies. He's been on the show a time or two. Jeff supports Oprah's "ANGEL NETWORK" by donating TWO DOLLARS for every ONE dollar donated by everyone else). I do not know how to spell Jeff's last name, but it is pronounced: BAY-zos (long "O" as in the word 'most').
We all know Oprah hates pedophiles. But that's not the only reason to let her know. Oprah's "Angel Network" is the "charity" aspect of the Oprah show. Whenever Oprah has a show about some of the causes the Angel Network has financed, she ALWAYS INCLUDES this sentence: "For every ONE dollar you donate, Jeff Bazos (or Bezos?) of Amazon.com donates TWO DOLLARS." And then she'll usually say Thanks to Jeff.
I betcha all it would take is one little phone call from Oprah to Jeff to get this book off Amazon.
Grits
Amazon.com accused
of aiding molesters
Sale of 'boylovers' book by online retailer prompts threat of lawsuit
By Art Moore
2002 WorldNetDaily.com
Amazon.com has been accused by a nonprofit legal group of "contributing to the potential rape and molestation of children."
The online retailer's sale and promotion of the book "Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers," by David L. Riegel, is an unfair and unethical business practice, according to a letter sent yesterday to Amazon CEO Jeffrey Bezos by the United States Justice Foundation of Escondido, Calif.
The USJF has given Amazon 30 days to pull the book or face "protracted litigation." Today the group posted an online petition at a website called Conservative Petitions.com.
In the introduction to Riegel's book, released in 2000 by a publisher called SafeHaven Foundation Press, he writes that men who become involved in sexual relationships with boys "are sincere, concerned, loving human beings who simply have and were probably born with a sexual orientation that is neither understood nor accepted by most others."
SafeHaven Foundation Press's purpose, according its website, is to "publish, distribute, and retail non-fiction works on the subjects of boylove, loved boys, and boylovers. "
The book's introduction credits the Internet for bringing into "public awareness" a topic that has been "disparaged and forcibly silenced."
"Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers" also can be bought through the bookseller Borders, which has a special arrangement with Amazon.com.
"For them to allow these nuts to come on and suggest that this is a good thing is an absolute travesty," said Richard Ackerman, litigation counsel for the United States Justice Foundation, who noted that he was a victim of molestation. "I'm not ashamed that I can speak from personal experience to say how evil this is."
'Responsible intergenerational relationships'
Riegel also runs a website "about responsible intergenerational relationships between males." He calls it a "discussion forum where the joys, sorrows, issues and questions of boylove can be brought for honest, thoughtful and respectful discussion in a positive manner."
In the book's introduction, Riegel says: "Whereas men who were loved as boys, and men who have shared their lives and themselves with one or more boys, were before almost totally isolated from one another, the Internet has made possible extended discussions among all who choose to participate."
Ackerman charges that Amazon.com, which allows readers to post their own reviews of books, has created its own "free-for-all forum whereby pedophiles can share their darkest fantasies and promotion of child-sodomy with all Amazon.com visitors, including children."
One reviewer wrote, "As a pedophile myself, I found this book to be enlightening in my quest to truly come to terms with my own sexuality."
On Amazon's site, readers can connect via e-mail with this particular reviewer, whose e-mail address begins with "minrfiend."
Another reviewer says, "As a boylover, I found this book extremely helpful. But it is not intended for the boylover community: It is meant for the general public who fear the phenomenon of pedosexuality. As such, it sets out to explain in plain language what this phenomenon is about."
"Amazon.com should not be used as a potential 'dating service' for those who would molest children," Ackerman wrote in his letter to Bezos, obtained by WND. "How, exactly, are you going to find peace of mind if one of your child-customers happens to be lured into molestation because of your site?"
Ackerman warns Amazon that it could find itself "in the position of being sued for wrongful death, negligence or other tortious conduct should a molester and child be joined up with each other as a result of your site."
"Even if you are not interested in doing what is morally right in this case, your commercial general liability insurance carrier should view the potential liability as an unacceptable financial risk," he said.
Yesterday, Amazon listed on its main page, under "Quick Picks," several of the titles it recommends to readers interested in Riegel's book. They include "Dream Boy," a story about two adolescent boys and their homosexual relationship, and "Touched," a novel about a molested boy.
Censorship?
A spokesperson for Amazon.com responded in an e-mail to WorldNetDaily that the company certainly does not endorse "Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers."
"Simply because we sell a book does not mean we agree with the ideas it contains," said Patricia Smith.
"We believe that people have the right to choose their own reading material," she said. "Our goal is to support freedom of expression and to provide customers with the broadest selection possible so they can find, discover, and buy any title they might be seeking."
Smith noted that "that selection includes some titles which most people, including employees of Amazon.com, may find distasteful or otherwise objectionable. However, Amazon.com believes it is censorship to make a book unavailable to our customers because we believe its message to be repugnant."
The Web retailer published a brief review of Riegel's book under the company's name, by editor Christopher Hart, which stated: "Is there such a thing as a legitimate sexual relationship between an adult male and an underage boy? Most civilized people would answer emphatically 'no,' and 'Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers' won't convince them otherwise. Defensive in tone and amateurishly produced, this monograph uses both pseudo-scholarship and anecdotes in its attempt to justify its target audience's actions and feelings."
In 1999, organized protests forced Amazon to drop from its website another book that promoted pedophilia, "Varieties of Man-Boy Love," and customers have lodged complaints about the sale of books on bestiality and incest.
The American Family Association launched a campaign against Amazon's sale of Riegel's book two years ago but got no response.
No law above the law
Riegel said in an introduction that the book, "while certainly bound to be controversial, and which espouses certain changes in various laws, is carefully maintained within the limits of current laws, there is nothing in it which could possibly concern any postal inspector, or which could create any legal liability."
However, Ackerman wrote in his letter to Bezos that Amazon could face legal action under California law, based on the premise that unethical acts can form the basis for liability for unfair business practices.
"Clearly, it is an unethical business practice for you to allow the promotion of child molestation in the manner presently available on your website," Ackerman wrote. "The potentially dangerous nature of your activities gives rise to a valid basis for seeking injunctive relief, and we fully intend on seeking such relief if you do not immediately take action to eliminate the risk to children that your site presently creates. Because protecting children is in the public interest, you may also be held liable for damages under the California Consumer Legal Remedies Act."
Free speech has parameters that would have been understood clearly by the Founding Fathers, insists Scott Lively, head of the Pro-Family Law Center in Citrus Heights, Calif.
In contrast, "today's idea of free speech really assumes there is no law above the law and that any kind of speech is acceptable regardless of the consequence to society," he told WND.
"The current approach to free speech in the United States is the French egalitarian model, that there are no standards by which we measure speech," Lively explained. "My belief is that the Founding Fathers assumed a Judeo-Christian premise in all of the founding documents, and therefore anything that is fundamentally contradictory to the nature of human beings created in the image of God" is not permitted.
Lively believes that the societal barriers against adult-child sex are eroding quickly, following on the heels of the breakdown in social consensus on subjects such as infidelity and homosexuality.
"This is not an anomaly," he said of Riegel's book. "My prediction is we are going to see legalized adult-child sex within three to five years."
He noted that in many states the age of consent has been lowered to 16 years, allowing some teachers who had sex with students to walk away free of prosecution.
"In the Title IX guidelines put out by the federal government on sexual harassment they actually have a policy asking whether or not the sex was consensual, giving discretion to the school district as to whether or not they are going to consider different policies based on whether the teen consented or didn't," Lively said. "So these are all things moving very rapidly in the direction of child sex."
A book released earlier this year that condones adult-child sex is part of a wider effort by some academics to bring pedophilia into the mainstream, according to researcher Judith Reisman.
Judith Levine's "Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children from Sex," seeks to challenge "widespread anxieties" about pedophilia, according to a promo.
WOW!!!
Talk about a temptest in a tea pot.
Xandria
