by Xandria 42 Replies latest jw friends
Xandria,
I got the same lame reply from Amazon. I guess they are calling my bluff not to do business with them again until their discontinue their man/boy ads.
Their attitude is so much like the haught, vain Witnesses that they wont be bullied into making changes. I've done massive business with them over the years. Its no more.
Zechariah
Edited by - zechariah on 29 September 2002 3:33:3
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 29 September 2002 3:31:17
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 29 September 2002 3:31:53
Found your link on my own, lucky for them...only had 2 beers in the process.
I guess I'm ignorant on this issue because I haven't really heard about this before, but no matter how repugnant the book is (i've not looked into it), I think Amazon's stance is reasonable. If you don't like the message, then don't buy the book... this is America... 1'st ammendment and all. If the message is illegal, then that's a matter for the courts to decide.
I don't think it would be wrong for Amazon to sell a book about building bombs either, so long as the content is legal. The first ammendment applies equally to ideas that we agree with and ideas that we are disgusted by.
rem
Well Rim, that may be your opinion and your welcome to have it. But lets play devils advocate here. Lets say, someone you deeply loved and cared about was harmed by a bomb that they learned how to make by buying a book from Amazon???
Freedom is a good thing but with it comes responsiblity.
Xandria
Xandria,
Then I would speak out against making bombs and try to get stiffer penalties for bomb-makers/murderers.
Has anyone read this book? I just think people are jumping to conclusions. Granted, the message may be disgusting, but I sincerely doubt it's going to cause more abuse. I think it may help justify the abuse in abusers minds... but they've already done that, haven't they?
From what I've read so far, this seems to be a pseudo-scientific approach to justify abuse... not a how-to guide. I could be wrong, though, since I haven't read the book. I think the best option is to show how out to lunch these pseudo-scientific claims are by publishing legitimate research that rebutts it. Amazon is just doing their job... they should not be morality cops.
rem
OK, let's beat this dead horse again.
For those of you who live in the US, may I respectfully suggest you get out a copy of the US Constitution and read the damn thing?
We have something in this country called freedom of the press. That allows this type of book (or books/movies/audio tapes on other controversial topics) to be written and sold. That allows you to criticize the writer, subject matter, and the company selling it. That's been done.
A similar fracas has been raging in the Science Fiction Bool Club regarding sexually explicit books and those with lots of obscenities. In the latest newsletter, Senior Editor Ellen Asher says in all honesty she doesn't like some of the books offered, BUT the club isn't her private toy. Some people like to buy them and/or aren't offended by them.
My point? Is anyone forcing you to buy this book all of you have objected to? No. Are you forced to look at it? No. You've told Amazon you're appalled by it and threatened not to shop there again. Do you honestly think they didn't anticipate this kind of reaction from some people? This is one of the risks of doing business anywhere. The market rules.
Sounds to me like some of you feel the world should reflect your personal morality as far as the books we can buy or read, the movies seen, the information available to people, in a nutshell. Dub thinking. "We'll tell you what's best for you to read or think about."
And if somebody here's going to do one of those "Don't you have any sympathy for the victims of child abuse?" responses, I'll say if you have to ask, after reading other posts on other topics by me, you really haven't quite as good an ability to judge character as you thought. Yeah I care. This isn't the proper way to help the victims though. Prosecute the guilty. Bring them to the public's attention. Sue for $$$. Work to make the shameful practice of child molesting history as much as possible.
You don't have to buy this book. You never have to patronize Amazon again. By the same token, don't accuse anyone who does order a book from them after today of supporting purveyors of pedophilia materials. They aren't a one-interest outfit like NAMBLA. They might even sell gospel CDs. Or hunting magazines. I don't shop there so I don't know what all they offer.
Conclusion: I don't like it that the book exists. (BTW, why not write to the publisher and let `em know you're gonna boycott them from now on, too? Every other title they publish from now on. Also UPS or FedEx or the Post Office because they'll deliver copies of it. AND your Internet Service Provider because you can access Amazon's site through them? Don't forget your phone company if you log on via phone lines. And your PC maker as well.) But I'll defend Amazon's right to sell it. Because the "we will protect you" ethos of censors scares me far more than the existence of a book I wouldn't read anyway.
Hi -I just want to say that while I symathise with the view that the book shouldn't be published or sold, and support peoples right to protest against it, I think that people shouldn't be prevented from explaining their point of view, no matter now vile or repugnent, 'Let the reader use discernemnt'.
My original post disapered into the ether (and may or may no pop up again at some time), but I note that Rem has since made a similar comment with Xandria countering by asking how one would feel if people were motivated by or got the knowledge to be able to commit a crime like bombing or I suppose molestation or whatever by reading a published book.
Obviously that'd be horribly bad and I have no doubt that I'd feel anger toward the writer, publisher and seller. For example, I think some killings and suicides have been though to have been motivated by certian kinds of music that contains violent and satanic lyrics and ideas.
But that's really not the point here. The freedom to say what one thinks or beleives isn't tempered by the prospect that some derranged individual might act out whatever is written in a book or depicted in a movie or expressed in music or whatever. For example, publishing the design for a pipe bomb or whatever is straining the bounds of responsible public behaviour, but it's still up to the individual to build and use the bomb or not to. A 'how-to' book of child rape should have the writer in jail.
That's quite different however to a bomber, or murderer, or bank robber, or child molestor, or fraudster, or whomever writing a book to explain why they committed their crime or even justifying it. I take it that the book being sold is in this category. It's not about how to rape children, or even trying to persuade people to take up molestation.
It's (apparently) an explanation of why men abuse boys - a horrendous act. While I don't like people writing or distriubuting or profiting from that kind of material, I think it'd be worse for them to be prevented from doing so if they are willing to take the critisism for doing so.
I think Amazon's reply is a proper one in a free society. By all means critisise them or protest their decision to sell it, but I think they're doing nothing wrong by doing so (distastful perhaps, but not wrong in the rules of a free society).
Afterall, Amazon say they sell every published book, not every published book except the ones the public are outraged by. That wouldn't leave too many books left on the shelf!
Cheers, Max Divergent (living up to his handle!!)
Franlkly, that standard would leave us with
Ok for the people that want to spout about the constitution in the united states, it is WE the people, not WE the corperations, got it? As a PRIVATE corperation they have the RIGHT not to sell this kind of book, got it? As the buying consumer, we have the RIGHT to boycott this company, got it? Money talks in this situation, you don't like it being sold, don't buy they're products, which is what I am doing, and is what I told them. It's NOT censorship, it's capitalism, if your customers start going away, how fast do you think this company will change? When you walk into a business, do you not see the signs that say, we reserve the right not to serve you? Amazon has the right not to sell this book, they are not a government agency, like a library, if a library banned this book, then this would be a completely different story.
Good point Kingpawn
That's why I think it's important to make it make more sense for them not to sell it because of the custom they will loose from loyal customers.
If I were Amazon and someone who didn't buy anything from me was upset about something I sold then I'd think "so what". But if enough of my regular customers started saying they were not going to buy from me because of something I sold I'd then have to weigh up if selling that item really made economic sense.
