Asking For Evidence=Scorn & Ridicule?

by Valis 14 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Valis

  I've been trying to maintain a middle ground amid all the threads where certain allegations of abuse have been questioned and I have a couple questions for everyone and a few observations.

  First is asking for evidence of abuse tanamount to scorn and ridicule? Are outward manifestations of abuse enought to convince you? If the statute of limitations has not expired is not proof enough the fact that so many have stepped up and have/are trying to sue the WTBTS and respective congregations? If the abuse was so long ago, say 40-50 years ago how does one gague the veracity of said claims?

  Now I'll answer my own questions and I invite you to think over them yourselves.

  No, asking for evidence is niether scorn nor ridicule. I have seen, for instance, outward manifestations of abuse in our very own Jesika on more than one occassion. Yes I believe her. I will gladly give anyone the benefit of the doubt based on the fact they are willing to step up and fight w/the WTBTS in court. After all, the chips will fall where they may and eventually the truth will come out and all the details will be made know as a matter of public record. IMO, the way for us to really examine the veracity of claims of abuse that happened too long ago for legal action is for those silentlambs to relay to us the names and as much information as they possibly can, without going into the lurid details in any case. I believe Dakota for instance merely on his word, but a key element of doing so is having him step forward and post what he did at a very personal level or information. My last observation is for those of you who have information you "cannot reveal to us at this time"...well stop telling us that and overinflating your own importance in such matters. it does no good to imply you know something but can't reveal it...that is either bullshit or just your own expression of self importance. Edited to add that my last remarks were not geared toward victims of abuse, but those surrounding the whole issue at hand.

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer

  Edited by - Valis on 1 October 2002 17:9:3
• 

  pettygrudger

  Valis - excellent points.....it is a tragedy that not only are people abused as children/young adults, but then they must be victimized for perhaps the 3rd or 4th time in order to find some simblance of justice, but that is the way it must be. Persons accused do have a right in our country to be found innocent until proven guilty, regardless of how repugnent one may find them to be, or how much we are SURE of the allegations. It is a "travesty" of justice to the victims courageous enough to come forward, as it makes them have to relive the whole situation all over again. But, it has to be a safeguard in our society.

  For example, my own brother was falsely accused by his ex-wife of child abuse. She wanted custody even though she was a two-bit good for nothing excuse of a mother. She didn't have any grounds, so she made some up. Before it was over, alot of people "believed" my brother was a child molestor and although it was 7 years ago there are still those who don't believe any different.

  If it were not for the safeguard of being innocent until proven guilty - my brother would probably be on a sex offender list somewhere, being shunned by the community at large.
• 

  ThiChi

  In the US, you are innocent until proven guilty. This seems right, however problematic at times considering the emotional effect of this type of crime. A diligent search for truth demands questions and answers, IMHO.

  Your comments seem reasonable.

  I had a friend who killed himself because of an abuse accusation. He lost everything, even my friendship. He was later exonerated by the victim who had done this to another while living in a different state. I feel very very bad that I jumped on the bandwagon too when he needed a real friend to support him in an effort to clear himself. I live with this every day of my life..

  Edited by - thichi on 1 October 2002 17:19:1
• 

  Jesika

  Valis,

  You are a good friend and listener. Thank you for being there for me when I needed to talk or cry--usually both.

  I agree with what you have stated. I personally dont feel I have to prove anything, but I am also a doer and not a talker.

  I finally posted my story----- http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37768&site=3

  edited to include link.

  Edited by - Jesika on 1 October 2002 17:17:26
• 

  DannyBear

  Valis,

  *** My last observation is for those of you who have information you "cannot reveal to us at this time"...well stop telling us that and overinflating your own importance in such matters. ***

  There is an atmosphere here that discourages, might I even suggest squelches any type of skeptical view or questions relating to Silentlambs and its activities. Some have observed this attitude as worse than when in the borg.

  You are absolutly correct in the above observation. If you cannot say anything/reveal whatever, don't say it at all . By intimating that you have some insider info, for whatever reason, to add weight or authority to your words, it deminishes others and inflates the writer.

  I have lost and continue to lose respect for those who shun, or ignore the views of other's just because they do not 'sieg hiel' with the majority. Lock stepping and throwing stuffed lambs in unison does not a hero make.

  The real heros are the tens of thousands who go about their daily lives as shunned, austricized from family and friends, dealing with depression and all sorts of physical ailments, caused by this hidieous religion.

  Iam getting real tired of all this selective emotionalism surrounding 'for the children'. Children abused represent such a minor part of the whole picture, Iam afraid this cause has diverted attention away from the real crux of the issue...The WTBS is guilty of so much more than protecting child abuser's...it is not the core of the problem.

  Danny
• 

  Valis

  I saw that Jes and I posted on that thread too. I'm so glad you got to go to NYC! I agree w/you about the doers and the talkers. Its OK to be either I think, as long as one doesn't expect the same outcome from both perspectives. Anyway, glad you are home safe n' sound and that you didn't decide to hang out at Bethel and print magazines! *LOL*..

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
• 

  waiting

  IMO, the way for us to really examine the veracity of claims of abuse that happened too long ago for legal action is for those silentlambs to relay to us the names and as much information as they possibly can, without going into the lurid details in any case. - valis

  What gives "us" the right to "really examine the veracity of claims of abuse?" Are we now judges & jury, police & psych. advisors, rape counselors? And who on earth is going to "relay to us the names and as much information as they possibly can?" Lol, for all "we" know, "us" could be a group of phedophiles getting their jollies by going over our details, then making us feel like shit. It happens. Not saying that the group of "us" is pedophiles, but it's always a possibility. How would "we" know?

  And who is "us?" You and what others Jehovah's Witness Discussion posters? What are the qualifications of "us?" Please present the group content of "us", with ALL personal, private, information & professional qualifications so that we can determine if we meet with your demands of exposing ourselves to a whole group of unknown individuals who claim to know more than ourselves about our lives.

  Please list them publicly here for the benefit of all rape & incest survivors so we know who we must report our lives to.....so the group of "us" will state if it really happened or not.

  And btw., how in the hell can you be sure that the group of "us" doesn't have a rapist or two amongst it's rollcall?

  You may be a nice person, Valis. But there's absolutely no way in hell would I ever justify my childhood rapes to your acceptance/denial. You just have no right. I am a victim/survivor of child abuse/rape/violence of many years ago. You will not sit in judgement of me. Others might allow it, and that's their freedom - but you've made a dangerous proposal which doesn't speak well.

  And yes, on both sides of the rape table - in the USA, people are innocent until lawyers convince a jury otherwise. That's why people present their information to LAWYERS.

  waiting
• 

  waiting

  Okay Valis.

  I apologize for being a *tad* irritated when I posted the above. The content's the same......I just didn't want you to think I was attacking you. I actually think you're a cute guy, hair & all.

  If you haven't already noticed, among many child abuse victims - the anger trigger is close to the surface. People are forever judging us.

  Well, I would have fought back.

  Why didn't you call the police?

  Well, I would never have done THAT.

  Are you SURE he did THAT?

  On and on and on and on..........sometimes it does become apparent that some people are getting perverse jollies from our background. Like viewing a vicious auto accident to see how gross the victims are.

  Anyway..............

  waiting
• 

  amac

  Are we now judges & jury, police & psych. advisors, rape counselors?

  But there's absolutely no way in hell would I ever justify my childhood rapes to your acceptance/denial.

  Waiting posted the above and I am in agreement, but coming from a different angle. I have no position or desire to verify or judge whether someones claim to victimization is true or not (unless I know them personally.) However, if people want to relate their personal experiences on a board that is fine. I will not judge them either way, as being true or false. However, if they were to accuse someone by name, the same would still apply. I am in no position to judge the accused, and just as the victim would not want me to judge them, they should not expect me to judge the person they accuse.

  It is even sillier when others chime in with other remarks to corraborate, like "you can take it from me, that guy is a perv!" as if that is some conclusive evidence that should be accepted. Of course, this all seems to be rooting from the claims about Ted Jaracz. If someone wants to claim he is an abuser, that's fine, go to the authorities or someone who can investigate it. Don't tell it to the public and expect them to take your word for it simply because you are the victim.
• 

  amac

  First is asking for evidence of abuse tanamount to scorn and ridicule?

  No. It seems to me to be the fair thing to do.

  Are outward manifestations of abuse enought to convince you?

  That they were abused? Yes. That someone in particular did it? No.

  If the statute of limitations has not expired is not proof enough the fact that so many have stepped up and have/are trying to sue the WTBTS and respective congregations?

  Don't quite understand this one.

  If the abuse was so long ago, say 40-50 years ago how does one gague the veracity of said claims?

  That seems like it would be tough to do. But I would not take that upon myself, I would let authorities handle this and rely on their decision. It is far from a perfect solution, but it is better than any I can offer.