How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda 63 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  James Mixon

  CalebinFloroda: Your understanding on the 40 years stroll in the desert. Was it

  maybe 1 or 2 years of actually wondering in the desert and 38 years camped on

  the border of Canaan?
• 

  CalebInFloroda

  @C0ntr013r

  I appreciate the questions, really I do.

  Even though you don’t notice it, there seems to be something in your questions that is suggestive of Christian logistics. It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions. I’m glad you’re asking, but to understand you will have to let go. It will actually help you understand the following answers.

  Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure. Like the American in my joke above, outside of this board they probably don’t go around thinking about G-d. To understand and appreciate the atheist one has to understand this as a constant. And one has to accept that their identity doesn’t stem from their not being a god. Their identity merely consists of this facet, which may be a very unimportant one for them on their list of convictions.

  You have to do the same with Jews and Judaism. You have to accept Jews not from your perspective, but from that of a Jew. Like the way we read from right to left and place a headcovering on our head when we pray instead of remove one’s headcovering, you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.

  Why not speak the Divine Name? What is stopping me from picking and choosing things from Scripture to follow or forsake? How do I unbind myself from the literal interpretation from Scripture? Why can a prophet like Jesus not be the Messiah? Why do things in Judaism seem so contradictory?

  All you questions are answered with one simple answer: That’s just the way it is in Judaism.

  Some of the reasons are use of logic. Some of the answers lie in how Judaism works. Others are bound to cultural constructs. And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.

  It takes a long time to un-think like a Westerner or a Gentile and turn your thinking to naturally flow like an Easterner and Jew. It won’t make sense overnight or with a simple answer because it requires an approach that let’s go of what you are familiar with, what is making you ask questions. Once you learn it you will have other questions, of course, but that’s the way things are.

  This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers. It’s complex because life is complex. It’s ambiguous because, again, that’s what life can be and often. JWs have a religion that is made up because they can’t deal with life and it’s lack of easy answers, it’s complexities, it’s ambiguities. Jews and atheists and agnostics often find more in common and mutual respect because of our approach. There are even crossovers like Jewish Humanists, and like I mentioned many atheist Gentiles who enjoy sharing in Jewish ritual. If you are really looking for answers about Judaism itself you might want to check out some books or websites. I will gladly help point the way, but I am not writing this information or am here to make converts or change people. But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.

  We welcome everybody but we’re not in the business of proselytizing. We accept people as they are on their own terms and our religion teaches us that this is how we find the greatest gifts of G-d and from life. I want my friends to be Jewish and Christian and atheist and agnostic and straight and gay and Gentile and Muslim and etc., etc. And I want them to know I accept, love, and support them as they are.
  
• 

  CalebInFloroda

  @James Mixon

  The Torah is not intended as a history book. Thus its narrative is not restricted to what is read at first blush. Therefore whether the 40 years is literal or not is not as much a concern to me as are the experiences of my people during their sojourn in the Sinai wilderness.

  The point is not the time they spent in the desert but how they changed themselves and the course of Jewish history. The lesson is that we can all change ourselves for the better even when things are not ideal around us. Living in a world that may be a "wasteland" is no excuse for not attempting to become better humans, for not treating others well, or for complaining.

  Most Jews are more concerned with this than questions about the actual years. As a result some of us feel the 40 years were literal and some don't. Either is acceptable but not as important as the real lessons in my opinion.
  
• 

  oppostate

  Oh Caleb, you're really full of bung and quoting from the Jewish Encyclopedia isn't going to get me to believe anything you're selling.

  The term RAQIYA means to spread over like if you whirl a pizza pie dough over your head and you don't catch it going down and you end up wearing it as a hat, it is "spread over" you, now imagine I come along and smack down on it a few times so it is firmly attached to your head.

  This lessons on Jewish belief are also "over" you, I'm afraid.

  The Greek stereoma (LXX) and the Latin firmamentum (Vulgata) mean firm, stable, constant thing.

  Judaism has had so many different sects that who's to say what the belief of one sect or another is correct. Was Paul not a Jew? Was he not taught about Torah from the best?

  And there were the Essenes, and the Saducees, the Pharisees, the Zealots, and whoever else cared to interpret the Torah. The Talmud is just that, arguments about interpretations and traditions.

  And today there are quite a few different sects of Judaism not agreeing one with another about traditions and interpretations.

  I find it quite ridiculous that you start badmouthing Christian belief as pagan! I guess you're siding with the Pharisees and the Priests in calling Jesus a blasphemer. Then, like them, you're just exposing yourself as a hypocrite.
• 

  CalebInFloroda

  @oppostate

  I don't believe Christianity is pagan. It's origins are Jewish.

  And I've never quoted from the Jewish Encylopedia. In fact I can't remember ever using that as a resource.

  But the rest you have written may be right. I will leave it to the others here and my Creator to decide if I am a hypocrite.
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  Viviane

  Judaism is exactly as ridiculous as any other religion. No more, no less. The main thing giving modern Judaism an extra point is that they do their thing and live and let live (for the most part, there are some wacky Jewish fundies out there also, showing that any religions has it:s wackos that can interpret it's ambiguous, morally reprehensible and silly texts in a horrible fashion).
• 

  C0ntr013r

  CalebInFloroda

  I am a very curious person who want to understand and know. I hope you don't think that I was trying to find faults in your religion. Nor that I am trying learning more because I want to convert to Judaism.

  I simply ask because I have a inquiring mind and I apply logic, critical thinking and reason to it all, to better understand the world I live in. I guess that is why the JWs could not keep me trapped forever :P

  You are probably right, I don't know more about Jews then what I learned in school. I know some of your customs, holidays, rules etc. What I don't know is why... Why do they; do, think, reason the way they do. You have given me great insight into the "Jewish mind" and I find it fascinating.

  It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions.

  Since I am not asking the question from my own point of view, but asking from different angels and views, many of which contradict each other, the questions are going to contradict each other.

  I sometimes confuse people I discuss with because they think that I believe the view I am arguing from, when I am simply exploring the idea from another angel or belief system.

  One way of thinking about it is; I am trying to understand your beliefs, not compare them to my own.

  Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure.

  Are you implying that i lack these things? I don't consider myself atheist, I know most atheist are agnostic. I consider myself "just" agnostic if that makes any sense.

  It might seem like I am very interested in God/Judaism but the truth is that I don't think any more about those things than any other topic, I am simply curious.

  you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.

  Now, that is something I don't understand :P

  Btw, why do you think I am a westerner?

  And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.

  Do you think life can have logical contradiction, if so. How?

  This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers.

  The answers themselves are not the most interesting, I am more interested in how you think and reason, what is the thought process behind etc.

  Maybe my motives where unclear and I apologize if that is important.

  But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.

  Don't get me wrong, just because I don't understand you reasoning in some areas does not mean that I have not learned a great deal from you. I probably need to research Judaism to understand where you are coming from, maybe some of it is culture and have to be experienced first hand. Not just read about on a forum.

  Imo, sharing perspectives is how we grow as humans.

  Lastly I would like to share I saying I came up with when I wrote this reply, I think it kind off fits:

  Once you understand how someone thinks, you will be able to think like them.
  /C0ntr013r

  If you want to continue to "educate" me in your views I am happy to learn. But if you don't find it "fruitful" that is okay too :)
• 

  CalebInFloroda

  @Viviane

  That's pretty true.

  I also liked your comment on another thread where you said that you think G-d is a big di@k. That would explain a lot about me as a gay Jewish man as I have an affinity for both.
• 

  CalebInFloroda

  @C0ntr013r

  I think you are also getting the wrong idea from my replies as I don't think you are arguing with me or some of things you mention.

  Since your questions seemed more aimed at Judaism or my personal views than the main subject of this thread, how about making a new thread of just sending me a PM to discuss these things at your pace and as fully as you wish? Either is fine with me.

  But I would rather stick to one subject per thread, and for this thread it is about how JW theology is often more than lacking.
• 

  C0ntr013r

  CalebInFloroda

  Sure, either is fine.

  I guess the conversation kind of just happened? :P
  

  You can reply in a new thread or via PM, whichever you prefer :)