by CalebInFloroda 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
great point caleb
It's about fighting and struggling against the "angel" like Jacob did all through the "night" of ambiguity, of unknowing, of being the object of hatred, Inquisitions, people who want to hurt you, disbelief, genocide, and being called out as something we are not.
My answer above was not directed at you, C0ntr013r, but...
My apologies!
"Belief" is not an important facet to the Jewish experience.
Why should you hold the Sabbath and all the other rules of the Jewish culture if you don't believe it? Religious acts preformed by nonreligious people?
Some of us are born Jews, some join the tribe, some are part of a synagogue, some have no affiliation. But we are united by a common origin and destiny. We all engage in some sort of public act that tells us and the world: I am also a Jew.
So you make no distinction between the Jewish religion and the Jewish tribe, there is no distinction?
I, like a distant relative of mine once wrote, believe that essentially there is good in all people. If you want a creed and/or a belief system, then there it is.
I believe in facing bad with good.
I believe in answering ignorance with patience.
I believe in answering war with solution, anguish with peace, to try to hear others more than make them hear me, to live not only for me but also to fight for the rights of others who cannot.
I believe it is important to keep our traditions alive, to find the value in all cultures, in all the good that everyone has to give. I believe in preserving humanity, that even the unforgivable can be redeemed and forgiven, of seeking ways to heal instead of inflict.
These are the values of my culture, and I as a Jew believe in them. Whether I believe in a deity or not changes this not. Does any of that help?
And for the umpteenth time, it's not about belief. We are not Jews because we believe in doctrines or concepts. There is no creed to celebrate Sabbath or hold a Seder. We are Jews, period.
We do not believe in the concept of G-d, we respond to it and in various ways.
Maybe this will help:
CHRISTIANS...What you believe is what matters.
JEWS...What good you bring into the world is what matters.
CHRISTIANS...Your personal salvation is a priority.
JEWS...Bringing healing to where it is needed is the priority.
CHRISITANS...If you believe in the wrong doctrines it can cost you eternal life.
JEWS...Beliefs hold no power to give you something you don't possess or have the power to achieve on your own.
CHRISTIANS...You are more enlightened with your convictions than that of others and must convince or even bring down those who disagree with your views.
JEWS...You are enlightened by all you meet for all are created in G-d's image (so to speak), and you must protect and fight for the right of freedom of conscience for all.
These are the values of my culture, and I as a Jew believe in them. Whether I believe in a deity or not changes this not. Does any of that help?
So since the values are the same whether you are a Jewish atheist or theist, it is not important that you believe in God but that you share these values? That makes you Jewish?
What about a member of the Jewish tribe who don't identify with these values?
We are not Jews because we believe in doctrines or concepts. There is no creed to celebrate Sabbath or hold a Seder. We are Jews, period.
We do not believe in the concept of G-d, we respond to it and it various ways.
And you lost me :P
Maybe this will help:
CHRISTIANS...What you believe is what matters.
JEWS...What good you bring into the world is what matters.
CHRISTIANS...Your personal salvation is a priority.
JEWS...Bringing healing to where it is needed is the priority.
CHRISITANS...If you believe in the wrong doctrines it can cost you eternal life.
JEWS...Beliefs hold no power to give you something you don't possess or have the power to achieve on your own.
CHRISTIANS...You are more enlightened with your convictions than that of others and must convince or even bring down those who disagree with your views.
JEWS...You are enlightened by all you meet for all are created in G-d's image (so to speak), and you must protect and fight for the right of freedom of conscience for all.
Can you still be a Jew if you don't identify with any of these points?
CHRISTIANS...What you believe is what matters.
JEWS...What good you bring into the world is what matters.
CHRISTIANS...Your personal salvation is a priority.
JEWS...Bringing healing to where it is needed is the priority.
CHRISITANS...If you believe in the wrong doctrines it can cost you eternal life.
JEWS...Beliefs hold no power to give you something you don't possess or have the power to achieve on your own.
CHRISTIANS...You are more enlightened with your convictions than that of others and must convince or even bring down those who disagree with your views.
JEWS...You are enlightened by all you meet for all are created in G-d's image (so to speak), and you must protect and fight for the right of freedom of conscience for all.
Being Catholic and looking at this.... I got to say I identify much heavier with the Jewish position here. It is really remarkable how closely tied our great faiths are.
Correct me if I am wrong ,Doesn`t a "Jewish Rabbi always answer a question with a question ?"
Fiddler On The Roof
smiddy
C0ntr013r,
What you don't get or keep getting lost about is what you essentially grasp to live as a Jew. It is the opposite of your constant questions about belief. It's not about identifying with points of doctrine or making claim to or denying belief in this or that concept. It's about doing, responding, living, and enduring as a Jew.
Smiddy actually has a closer grasp, whether or not there was just humor behind the intention. It is indeed often said that a rabbi answers a question with a question. It is not actually so, but it can seem like that.
What you are not grasping is something you obviously need to learn, and that is grasping the ideology that what you believe about something is NOT the point to Judaism. It's the opposite. It's want you DO, not what you believe.
That does indeed take some training for some converts due to the fact that it is Eastern thinking, backwards in comparison to what you might be used to. There is no central body that makes decisions, no faith or salvation concepts, instead you will find transcendent and intangible facets that combine with tangible and very sense-driven ritual. Like I said in the very beginning, which you did NOT take heed of was that you would have to let go of your preconceptions you are used to. Your questions aren't helping, not because there are no answers. There are indeed answers. You are just wanting things to be there in Judaism like belief, things that don't matter in the way you keep asking about.
