Evolution or creation?

by haujobbz 155 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  IronGland

  "No God, no complex organisms. Same as nature truly speaks."

  Well, then, based on your logic you have to apply the same principle to God. I suppose there was some uber-god who created god,and on and on.
• 

  rem

  Pomegranate,

  Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.--Abraham Lincoln

  Now go and do some research and come back when you have at least a fundamental understanding of the subject you attempt to debate.

  Here's a good place to start: http://www.talkorigins.org

  rem
• 

  expatbrit

  "No God, no complex organisms. Same as nature truly speaks."

  Therefore no complex organisms, no God. Same as evolution truly speaks.

  Expatbrit
• 

  Crazy151drinker

  Realist,

  Because there is one hell of a difference between some 1 cell microbe and a Billion cell human. Its the odds I tell you the odds........
• 

  IronGland

  To me, it's harder to imagine going from nonliving to microbe than it is from microbe to human.
• 

  faithfulJW

  a theory is still factual

  The question is, factual to whom? I agree with pomegranate. Before we go into how prokaryotic cells made the enormous jump to eukaryotic cells, let's work out how the whole cycle started. It's like the chicken and the egg riddle.In fact it is the chicken/egg thing just on a smaller (or maybe larger) scale.
• 

  crownboy

  Evolution is both a fact and theory. This point is eloquently written about in an essay by Stephen Jay Gould entitiled "Evolution as Fact and Theory" (see: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html )

  To quote from the essay (it's better to read the entire thing from the link, BTW):

  In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of sciencethat is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

  Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.
• 

  Realist

  pomegranate,

  sorry!!!! i misread your name...rn looks like an m ...

  what is pome???
• 

  Realist

  crazydriver,

  the odds the odds

  actually the odds are hard to calculate in this case but you are right the probability is certainly small.

  still we know the differences between chimps and humans for instance...there is no need for a spirit to create this difference!

  if you look at the development of all species it seems as if evolution does lead necessarily to more complex life forms.
• 

  freeman

  When I last looked at this thread there were like maybe 5 or 6 posts now its like 40. The Evolution vs. Creation subject always seems to generate a lot of activity.

  JJRIZO let me respond to some specific things you said in response to my comment to Pomegranate.

  Not to sound critical but how do you know what cellular life was at the beginning?

  I never said I knew what life was like in the beginning; I said it is a mistaken assumption that cellular construction and function is the same now as it was in the beginning.

  This is really quite interesting! You have all the knowledge of these things but you weren't there to witness them from the beginning?

  I have never been to Poland but I am quite sure it exists and I am even more certain that the earth is round.

  Now how do I know this since the closest I have every come to Poland is a sausage I ate once in South Jersey and admittedly I have never walked the entire length of the earth from end to end, so how can I be so sure?

  I'll give you a hint, its not at all based on faith, and its based on KNOWN FACTS.

  Hey I'll listen to anything you say but to be considered an authority on the subject, give me a break!

  Did I say or imply that I was some type of expert in this field? Sorry if I came off that way.

  I readily admit that Im not that well versed in any of the numerous evolutionary sciences that prove the fact of evolution, however I am obviously a little more educated on this subject then some posters. You see I too espoused almost identical arguments until I was further educated on this subject. Now that I know better, I just cant honestly make such arguments anymore.

  As an example, when people say such things as this, they show their profound ignorance on this subject just as I once did:

  If we evolved from apes, then why are there so many UNFIT TO SURVIVE apes still surviving if we are the species that was supposedly the fittest?

  I made the same exact argument and it made perfect sense to me at the time, as Im sure it does to Pomegranate and other like-minded poster. One thing this poster did do is show how silly it would in fact be for anyone to believe that we descended from apes since the apes exist here with us. Too bad that is not what evolutionary science teaches, but IF it did you certainly would have a fine argument, you sure would.

  Alas, evolutionary science in all it many disciplines does not teach that apes evolved into men, only that at some point we shared a common ancestor. And now at this stage of our understanding, that fact is indisputable right down to our common DNA.

  I have to wrap this up now so let me a gain urge posters to truly investigate the subject for yourself, you will be truly amazed at what you dont know, I sure was.

  PS: The acknowledgment of the fact of evolution is not inconsistent with the existence of a creator so dont worry about that. As for a literal interpretation of the Bible book of Genesis, thats a different story. Im afraid you are going to have some trouble with this after you learn the facts, sorry.

  Freeman (been there, done that class)

  Edited by - freeman on 9 October 2002 23:18:18