RE: Ozzie's post on "Restrictions"

had_enough

Hi all:

I have a question about restrictions on df'd persons wanting to come back to the org.

I finally joined here on Mar 26, after reading posts for about a month, with telling my story first. What moved me to join in was reading Ozzie's post on Mar.23(I think), about "Restrictions" regarding reproofs, probations, and df'ing. I appreciated his comments and was so glad when he brought the subject up. It touched an exposed nerve in me yet to heal.

What has always been unanswered to me, when I've asked others about this, is this....

When reading of the 'prodigal son', we know he returned to his father repentant and humble, and the father ran down the road to greet his son with open arms and tears. Then a feast of rejoicing was prepared for his welcome. He was NOT told to come in after the meal was started, sit in a corner, eat alone and not talk to anyone until he proved himself. The fact that he had returned humble and repentant was enough to extend a loving welcome to him.

Why is this same principle not applied to those wanting to return to the org? Isn't it enough humiliation to walk through those doors having everyone look at you knowing your sins... and they DO know even if they're not supposed to.

I don't mean to suggest that everyone returning should be given a huge banquet etc. etc. but just the expression of "welcome back" could do more good than what all the humiltiation and pouring of salt on the open wound, produces.

Have I missed the point here or are df'd ones not worthy of being welcomed back until they have endured not only being cut off from all family and friends, but also the humiliation of further restrictions placed on them at the meetings before reinstatement. To try and ignore the stinging hurt of having to come into the meeting after the prayer, look for a couple of empty seats so no one will have to be embarrased to sit next to you, having ones around you look up at you but look through you or look away without expression and then leave quickly before the closing prayer is said.

This treatment is said to be deserved because you sinned and have to prove yourself humble to be reinstated.

How does that fit in with the 'prodigal son' example?
How does that apply to a da'd person who just got discouraged and couldn't handle the pressure to 'perform' all the WTS requirements and resigned, and now has a change of heart, matures or whatever and wants to return?
Is this the 'loving' treatment Jesus expected us to inflict on 'lost sheep'?

I have more comments and questions for later on treatment of these ones at a funeral (I've been told conflicting rules)....but I'll leave that for another time.

I'd truly appreciate any help, encouragement, enlightenment, anything.. on this sore spot of mine!

Thanks all!

had enough

BadAssociate

hadenough

This treatment is said to be deserved because you sinned and have to prove yourself humble to be reinstated.
How does that fit in with the 'prodigal son' example?

it doesn't

Is this the 'loving' treatment Jesus expected us to inflict on 'lost sheep'

one could get that impression

BADASSOCIATE

humble

testing first post...testing...

humble

The 'prodigal son' illustration was used by Jesus to show Jehovah's love for those that repent from their wrongdoings. He did not go into details on how the father handled the situation. For example, what happened after the banquet? Where there any repercussions to the prodigal son's actions?

One thing is for sure, it is a beautiful illustration of compassion and forgiveness fromt he Almighty, Jehovah.

Now, why are there restrictions after being reinstated?
First of all, it is true that the discipline is being disfellowshipped, but can the elders in the judicial committee read the persons' heart. Of course not, only Jehovah can do that. Anyone can cry and say that they have changed their ways. Restrictions allow elders to see the persons' true motives and these restrictions are lifted when the reinstated person asks for them to be lifted. Of course, this happens one at a time. The last restriction to be lifted is the priviledge of representing the congregation in prayer.

The final purpose of all these procedures is that the person that has sinned will have a clean conscience and be able to serve Jehovah with a clean record.

unanswered

humble-not attacking here, but how does any man or woman have the ability or right to decide when another's conscience is "clean"? from my reading, this is not a biblical notion. if you are refering at all to hebrews 5:13-16, this doesn't mention one's personal conscience at all. what if a person's conscience is already clean?just asking. respectfully-nate

BadAssociate

humble - you are aware of that this is a non wtbts approved/authorised website?

you are aware of the repercussions to yourself if your local elders discover you've been reading and posting on a non wtbts approved/authorized website

let me know if you aren't i'll send you the KM that "clearly" spells it out for you.

why should i listen to the defender of a religion who doesnt even follow the rules of the faith he supposedly staunchly defends himself

BADASSOCIATE

had_enough

Humble:

I appreciate your effort at trying to help me understand.

You replied:
"First of all, it is true that the discipline is being disfellowshipped, but can the elders in the judicial committee read the persons' heart. Of course not, only Jehovah can do that. Anyone can cry and say that they have changed their ways. Restrictions allow elders to see the persons' true motives..."

I agree, the elders cannot read a person's heart and anyone can say that they have changed their ways, but how can they tell the person's 'true motives' by not allowing that person any contact with others at or away from the meetings?

How appealing and welcoming does it sound to that person to be told, "we want you to come back to the meetings and be part of our spiritual family again, but... you can't talk to anyone or sit with anyone"

What good can come from heaping more flaming coals on their heads once they have made the effort to come back to the meetings?

A family member is not even allowed to sit with that person.

I know I'm not alone on feeling this way, not only by reading comments from exJWs on this board but also those from JWs still attending as well as from expressions from many active witnesses made to me personally or passed on from someone else who heard it.

had enough

humble

I will respond to all three posts here if I may:

unanswered: Elders cannot decide or know if the conscience of another is 'clean'. It could be clean or it could not. Jehovah only knows what's going on with that person. The theme here were restrictions after being reinstated. Restrictions like 'not commenting in the meetings', or 'not being able to represent the congregation in prayer' gives ther person a goal to work towards. By that persons effort, the elders perceive that the person has made his peace with Jehovah and that Jehovah is blessing those sincere efforts.

BadAssociate: Thank you for your counsel, although I understand that it is not sincere but sarcastic. I will not reason with sarcasm. Elders will not disfellowship me for my views. Now if I stubbornly start spreading my ideas trying to turn the flock against Jehovah's appointed servants, then there is a problem. If one is humble and is sincere then there is no problem there.

had_enough: You said: how can they tell the person's 'true motives' by not allowing that person any contact with others'. Once again, I want to clarify, are we talking about the time while one is 'disfellowshipped' or the period when one has restrictions after being reinstated?

You say "A family member is not even allowed to sit with that person". This is not so, a disfellowshipped person may sit anywhere he/she pleases in the kingdom hall and with whomever. Disfellowshipping is a temporary discipline for not showing repentence for our wrongdoing. When someone is reinstated they can talk and associate with anyone in the congregation.

unanswered

humble-thanks for responding. i don't agree that the "efforts" required are a good standard for judgement, but that is just my opinion, and i respect your right to your's. i also realize my question was off topic.

"Elders will not disfellowship me for my views. Now if I stubbornly start
spreading my ideas trying to turn the flock against Jehovah's appointed
servants, then there is a problem. If one is humble and is sincere then
there is no problem there."

still not attacking, and i know this wasn't addressed to me, but i think IMO that the WT history shows that you don't have to spread your ideas around to be disfellowshipped. it only takes mentioning something in confidence to a close friend and having that come to the attention of the elders to be df'ed, in some cases. if this discussion is not something you want to get into with me, i understand, and i'm not being sarcastic.-nate, after all i am butting in:)

humble

I understand when you say that you don't agree that the "efforts" required are a good standard for judgement. But it's the only thing that is available since elders can't read the figurative heart. The purpose of this is to help the person gain his relationship with Jehovah.

I realize that some elders may be harsher that others when it comes to viewpoints contrary to the Organizations'. Again, if that person is publicly preaching his point of view, which is only that, his point of view, then that is a threat to the rest of the congregation. Each one can read his own Bible and come to his own conclusions. Time and time, the literature states to wait on Jehovah and he will reveal things in due time. The thing is not to concentrate on little bitty things, but to make it through this old system into the new one. Many things will make sence then. The apostles were humble and waited on Jesus. When Jesus told them that they could not understand things yet, they did not criticize him saying "well if you have the truth, that why keep us in the dark", or they did not say "we will study on our own and come to our own conclusions on what your illustrations and words mean." No they waited until most was revealed during the pentecost of 33 C.E.

Sometimes we don't understand at the moment why things are handled the way they are, but let's keep in mind that jehovah is in control at all times. He will not let us down, that's for sure.

RE: Ozzie's post on "Restrictions"

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