RE: Ozzie's post on "Restrictions"

by had_enough 39 Replies latest jw friends

bigboi

Since elders cannot possibly know what is in a person's heart or whether or not a person is truly repentant or not, then by what authority do they judge people as being repentant or unrepentant? Especially when that person admits to his wrong and shows visible expression of sorrow guilt or shame etc. How cn they be sure that the person is sincere or faking it?
LovesDubs

It really takes guts to post on this board Humble. I give you that. However I do have some comments about what you said.
"The 'prodigal son' illustration was used by Jesus to show Jehovah's love for those that repent from their wrongdoings. He did not go into details on how the father handled the situation."
- Then how can anyone including the Society SPECULATE about how he handled things afterwards?? Do you read what you say? They could just have easily said what happened between the time Jesus was 12 and when he was 30 as say what happened after this banquet...and oh by the way. ITS AN ILLUSTRATION. You know..just like the ILLUSTRATION about the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" which the Society also somehow made into a literal group, like the 144,000 of Revelation.
"For example, what happened after the banquet? Where there any repercussions to the prodigal son's actions?"
- If the father forgave the son and welcomed him with open arms and had a party for him and then subsequently punished the guy when all the witnesses to his behavior at the party were gone home, that would only be INCREDIBLY hypocritical and werent you just saying this Father was Jehovah? Is Jehovah two faced? Again, why does the Society or you, assume that the son was subsequently punished and that his coming home and humbling himself to his father and being FORGIVEN BY HIS FATHER wasnt the END of it? If he was repentent...that IS the end of it. There would be no need to "prove" anything to anybody. If that were the case, he would NOT have been "forgiven" yet like the Society says...you cant be forgiven and reinstated until you "do time".

"One thing is for sure, it is a beautiful illustration of compassion and forgiveness from he Almighty, Jehovah."
Yes it does show jehovahs forgiveness which is immediate and the sin FORGOTTEN. It in no WAY comes CLOSE to the way the Society/Elders treat the sheep in actuality. Love does NOT keep account of the error. The society and the Judicial Committees are anything BUT forgiving and forgetting entities, and that person's "sin" follows them even to death as a Jw and is a permanent part of his record.
"Now, why are there restrictions after being reinstated?
First of all, it is true that the discipline is being disfellowshipped, but can the elders in the judicial committee read the persons' heart. Of course not, only Jehovah can do that. Anyone can cry and say that they have changed their ways. Restrictions allow elders to see the persons' true motives and these restrictions are lifted when the reinstated person asks for them to be lifted. Of course, this happens one at a time. The last restriction to be lifted is the priviledge of representing the congregation in prayer."
You just contradicted yourself. If the elders do not have the ability to determine a person's heart condition at the time of their "sentencing" what gives them that ability 10 days or 5 months or 4 years later to give him his "privilege" of being treated like a human being, back again? Answer: They dont. They dont EVER have the ability to give nor take anyone's status before God. The entire punishment is to make them a spectacle to others and humiliate them. Their relationship with God is neither proven nor disproven by their ability to fool people in the congregation...least of all the elders. The whole scene is a mockery of Jehovahs forgiveness.
"The final purpose of all these procedures is that the person that has sinned will have a clean conscience and be able to serve Jehovah with a clean record."
Again...that person's record in the congregation will never ever again be "clean" and no one will ever treat them the same. If they ever change congregations, their records follow them and they will once again have to "prove" themselves to the hypocrites there who dare to judge them. That person's conscience is CLEAN immediately upon his prayer of repentance to Jehovah. Not one single moment later. And that happens not when the SOCIETY decides it did..but when God and that person say it did. Are you going to tell me that you and the "friends" dont whisper about others and say "did you know Sister So-and-so was difellowshipped? She was only recently reinstated! Can you believe it?" If you say that doesnt happen...stop RIGHT there and check yourself.
The elders sit there like little Grand Poobahs with giant fuzzy animal hats, passing judgement on peoples LIVES like God himself came down and handed them the keys, destroying lives and families with the stroke of a pen and the wave of a hand and an announcement to the hall. POOF...one more life destroyed for, say...joining the YMCA.
"Gods" Organization indeed....if this is GODS organization, then David Koresh was indeed Jesus.
And oh by the way...you can be repentent and STILL be disfellowshipped becuase they HAVE to make an example of you so dont even go there. The more people that "know" about your "sin" the longer your sentence will be.
As for that party when the son returned...if this is an accurate illustration of how the SOCIETY does things, then why do they say absolutely NO PARTIES for those who are reinstated? Comical really... if it wasnt so sad. They have you by the short hairs.
unanswered

humble-"Sometimes we don't understand at the moment why things are handled the
way they are, but let's keep in mind that jehovah is in control at all
times."
since this appears to be the basis for your argument, is it your assumption that jehovah is in direct control of the WT? if it is, i can't agree w/ you there.
bigboi

That was very good Lovedubs. I esepecially appreciated the point you brought out about a person being disfellowshipped despite showing a repentant attitude. Most jws don't know that can happen.
I rember attending a gathering shortly before I left about 3yrs ago and the discussion turned towards disfellowshipping. A sister made the comment about how she couldn't understand how anyone could leave Jehovah(referring specifically to disfellowshipped persons). I then told her that just because a person is disfellowshipped doesn't mean that the person wanted to be disfellowshipped, but rather the elders have decided that the person needs it in order to be properly disciplined for whatever they did. She didn't agree with me until an elder that was attending told her that what i said was true. They didn't know it at the time, but I knew because it happened to me.
had_enough

Humble:
My post is dealing solely with the restrictions placed on a disfellowshipped person before reinstatement.
I was promted to write about this because of Ozzie's Mar 23 post on "Restrictions" which dealt with mostly restrictions for those publicly reproved and on probabtion, but also touched on disfellowshipped ones before reinstatement. That's what I was resonding to.
To clarify about the family member sitting with the df'd one, I was referring to a family member not living in the same home with the non-disfellowshipped family member such as a married son. Not sitting with a df'd son, no longer living in his mother's home, but wanting to return to the meetings, was a restriction placed on one family in our hall. The elders told her he was to sit by himself at one end of the aisle and she at the other or elsewhere...and this was the general rule not made special for his case.
Ozzie in his Mar 23rd post, also stated that a df'd person [quote]"is not entitled to receive a copy of ‘Kingdom Ministry’. If there is a believing spouse, they cannot share the KM, for that would be fellowshipping spiritually on the part of the JW spouse! So the DF person is expected to attend the Service Meetings (as a sign of repentance) yet not be able to follow the meeting outline in the Kingdom Ministry, nor be able, if they wished, to prepare for the meeting." [end quote]
These are some of the kind of restrictions I was referring to. My bone of contention is that, a person, having suffered the loss of contact with family (not living in the same home) and with close friends while df'd, is punished more than enough. Why continue this punishment for whatever the amount of time required, AFTER the person expresses his repentance by coming to the meeting in the first place?
How can looking forward to that, be encouragement to come back to the meetings? A df'd person returning to the meetings is already showing humility in coming back in the first place. Being treated like that is like being kicked in the stomach and gasping for air. That's not how I picture Jesus treating a lost sheep when it finds its way back into the fold.

Humble: I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing you.. I'm not.. I appreciate your efforts in answering me.
Unanswered: Please don't feel you're butting in..I appreciate any contribution to this thought.
You said "the WT history shows that you don't have to spread your ideas around to be disfellowshipped. it only takes mentioning something in confidence to a close friend and having that come to the attention of the elders to be df'ed..."
I totally agree with that as I'm sure many other do who have had firsthand experience or just knowledge of it.
That's why I feel my hands are tied now because I want to ask these and many many more question and discuss them but I know I can't right now because of family circumstances so I just sit, inactive, hoping someday things will change and my still-active family won't be threatened with banned association with me because I've expressed non-belief in some teaching.
Sorry if I sound like I'm harping on one subject but this "only touches the tip of the iceberg" for me and it still hurts so much.
had enough
humble

bigboi: How did the Apostle Paul know that the man from the Corinthian congregation was not repentent? Why did he write to disfellowship the man? Why did he ask the congregation to forgive him in the second letter to the Corinthians? He could not read the persons heart either, but we know he had Jehovah's approval and his holy spirit guided him in those decisions. Today, elders in judicial committees pray to Jehovah for his guidence. During deliberations, they pray for his guidence many times so that they don't disfellowship a person that it truly repentant. Even at that, the person has the right to appeal to a new committee if they see that an injustice has been done.
LovesDubs: Wow, I sence a bit of anger on your post. You must feel good and secure at referring to all the thousands of elders in the thousands of congregations around the earth as hypocrites. You must of had a hard time with what? 3 or 4 of them in your congregation. Let's address some of your comments if you don't mind:
Then how can anyone including the Society SPECULATE about how he handled things afterwards?? Do you read what you say? They could just have easily said what happened between the time Jesus was 12 and when he was 30 as say what happened after this banquet...and oh by the way. ITS AN ILLUSTRATION. You know..just like the ILLUSTRATION about the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" which the Society also somehow made into a literal group, like the 144,000 of Revelation.
Are you skipping from one thing to another, or what? I'm not speculating anything, but you have to understand that there are repercussions to all our actions. King David was very repentant, but he was also disciplined and suffered the consecuences of his wrongdoing.
Yes it does show jehovahs forgiveness which is immediate and the sin FORGOTTEN. It in no WAY comes CLOSE to the way the Society/Elders treat the sheep in actuality. Love does NOT keep account of the error. The society and the Judicial Committees are anything BUT forgiving and forgetting entities, and that person's "sin" follows them even to death as a Jw and is a permanent part of his record.
This is not true. There is no permanent record. The only permanent record is if the person abused a child. Even if that person moves to that congregation, the previous has to inform the new congregation of the persons past to protect the congregation. If that person was disfellowshipped for any other reason, then it is not necessary to inform the congregation of his/her past. I should know, I'm the secretary in our congregation.
They dont EVER have the ability to give nor take anyone's status before God. The entire punishment is to make them a spectacle to others and humiliate them. Their relationship with God is neither proven nor disproven by their ability to fool people in the congregation...least of all the elders. The whole scene is a mockery of Jehovahs forgiveness.
I don't know your past, but by this these words you seem to be extremely pissed at someone. As elders, we are not there humiliate anyone. I know that I love my brothers and sisters very much. Even when they sin bigtime, it is very sad for me. But if they are stubborn in following their ways and want to continue their wrongdoing, then we follow what Paul instructed. You say that elders should not judge, but at the same time, what gives you the right to judge the motives of those elders.
Again...that person's record in the congregation will never ever again be "clean" and no one will ever treat them the same. If they ever change congregations, their records follow them and they will once again have to "prove" themselves to the hypocrites there who dare to judge them.
You need to calm down and not be so judgemental. Once again, the persons record does not follow them everywhere.
That person's conscience is CLEAN immediately upon his prayer of repentance to Jehovah. Not one single moment later. And that happens not when the SOCIETY decides it did..but when God and that person say it did.
This is very true, but if the person expresses this during the committee, he/she will not be disfellowshipped.
Well, I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm just stating facts about the procedures. Obviously you are extremely mad about how things were handled in your case or someone else that you care for. One thing is for sure, going back to the case of the man in the Corinthian congregation that was disfellowshipped by Paul. If he would have thought the way you do, Paul would have never instructed them to reinstate him into the congregation. Meditate on my handle "humble".
Adios.
LovesDubs

Why is it whenever an EXJW expresses things they are "angry" or "pissed" or "had a bad experience"??
LOL!! Such a typical JW answer. And obviously you know nothing about organizational procedures. When you are DFd it is on your publisher record. And...they know about it at Bethel, and...when you DIE they make note of that on your record at Bethel as well.
Gosh...how is it with all that NEW LIGHT around you you are still so in the dark? Thats ok..we all were.
Nice try tho. I dont know what congregation you work for...but nobody is INFORMED in the next congregation about molestors in their midst. Or havent you been keeping up with the news lately?
had_enough

To LoveDubs:
Thank you for your excellent answers on the prodigal son and actions of the elders. You said so many things that I feel and know on this subject and only one who has gone through it can really understand what hurt and humiliation the whole process causes especially for those who don't choose to be df'd by being non-repentant. I would have appealed my case on that grounds but just the thought of having to go through that whole gruelling, humiliating, painfull experience again sitting in front of 3 men (or is it more in an appeal case?) just was too much at that emotionally difficult time for me. So I took my lumps and sat through the meetings alone, feeling such despair I don't know how I did it now when I think back on it.
Good Grief, I just read Humble's last response and I was ready to go through the monitor.
Humble says: " But if they are stubborn in following their ways and want to continue their wrongdoing, then we follow what Paul instructed." I could sit here for days writing about ones who have been df'd even though expressing repentance but because the elders feel they need to make an example of that one or perhaps the person has slipped more than once they df him anyway.

And as for asking God's spirit to guide them and then that's their backing for df'ing a person, that is a typical WT answer. I've heard it many times before (haven't we all?)
If God's spirit is directing the elders decision why is there a need for an appeal arrangement? How can God's spirit direct them to make mistakes in their committee judgements?
One sister I know told her story to a CO and he was shocked and said that should never have happened, but nothing was ever done to fix it and now it's too late for her son to come back.
Thanks for all your supportive answers. It always helps to know we're not alone.
had enough
bigboi

he wrote the congregation to disfellowship the man because it was clearly evident that man was still living with and having an improper sexual relationship with his father's wife! He wrote them to forgive the man because he had become repentant and they were not allowing him to return(sound familiar). Thus they were being overly permissive in the first instance and overly harsh in the second, that's the point of Paul's whole discussion regarding that situation with the Corinthians. It also supports Paul admonishion to them not to be overreached by Satan, mentioned later in the chapter.&D
Englishman

Humble,
Just listen to your own heart.
Why do you assume that an elder is better qualified to do this than you?
Englishman.

RE: Ozzie's post on "Restrictions"

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