Mormons ELECT their ELDERS

by refiners fire 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  refiners fire

  "Relief Society Study Guide." 1989 version. Article: "By Common Consent".

  " The law of common consent allows the membership of the Church to sustain or reject certain proposals made by those in authority". And " No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the VOTE of that church". And "Even Joseph Smith was required to abide the law of common consent in the matter of his ordination to the priesthood" And "With the familiar words 'All in favor please signify by the uplifted hand' we are invited to show our willingness to support those who have been called"....

  Looks like democracy doesnt it? But Lets finish that last sentence:

  ..." we are invited to show our support for those who have been called by DIVINELY INSPIRED leadership to serve"..we believe that a man must be CALLED OF GOD, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands of THOSE IN AUTHORITY, to preach the gospel and administer in the ordinances"...... "Had the people gathered together and appointed one of their number to be a prophet, he would have been accoutable to the people, but inasmuch as he was CALLED BY GOD, and not the people he is ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD ONLY".

  Why then, what is the significance of the 'show of hands' if it is, after all, NOT the members right to appoint their leaders?

  The article continues:

  "The act of sustaining (raising the hand) is an INDIVIDUAL EXPRESSION. We are responsible to know thru the confirmation of the spirit that who we are asked to sustain is the mind and will of the Lord".... "no Man has the RIGHT to raise his hand in OPPOSITION, with contrary vote, unless he has reason to do so that would be valid if presented before those who stand at the head"...."When a person goes through the sacred act of raising his arm to the square, he should remember, with all sobreness, that WHICH HE HAS DONE, and COMMENCE TO ACT in harmony with his vote"....."Do we realize that every time we sustain the leaders of the church we are DUTY BOUND to SUPPORT them? THE RAISED HAND BECOMES A SYMBOL OF THE COVENANT WE HAVE MADE TO SUPPORT THEM"...." Each time we CRITICIZE them, we become COVENANT BREAKERS"

  Why, the raising of hands is not a "vote" at all. It is no more than a physical action, a commitment signal, and public sign that we agree to OBEY the leader who has been nominated by the GOD Directed organization.

  The article says:

  "The voting for proposals made by presiding authorities is USUALLY UNANIMOUS"

  I just BET it is!

  Edited by - refiners fire on 10 October 2002 5:5:34
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  RevMalk

  	refiners fire: Why, the raising of hands is not a "vote" at all. It is no more than a physical action, a commitment signal, and public sign that we agree to OBEY the leader who has been nominated by the GOD Directed organization. Refiners, From what I know of the Mormon Religion, everything is supposedly through God and by God. For instance, I recently read a quote, I think it was from their President. He told his people that when the Church receives a revelation, they should not just believe that as Gospel without first asking God themselves, and he even went on to say that until they do this, their God has commanded them to NOT to put merit into that teaching or revelation. Also, he mentioned not to teach the revelation as Gospel until you've done this as well. He even said not to trust his word should he have a Revelation, and to treat his teachings as hearsay until the Lord himself has revealed it's truth. He claims to be an imperfect man, and his word is only good when making Revelation, but to not trust that for yourself. I was quite impressed with that. I mean, who else tells you "Don't believe a word I say unless God administers the fact himself". Anyway, so I am assuming that this is a similar thing. The flock does have a vote, and I think they're saying that part of the proof of the person in question being appointed by God is a unanimous decision. I can't imagine that if half the congregation raised their hands and half didn't they'd go ahead and appoint the person, but I could be wrong. It's just this whole thing with the Mormons, they have this group effort thing going on, and everything is always double checked (supposedly) individually through their God, on a person scale. Hence the: "The act of sustaining (raising the hand) is an INDIVIDUAL EXPRESSION. We are responsible to know thru the confirmation of the spirit that who we are asked to sustain is the mind and will of the Lord" I think this means that the Holy Spirit is guiding the congregation, and they should accept that guidance, and take it seriously. I don't know if these things are all that effective, but at least they get a say (while being Guided by God). I don't think it's contradicting itself here, I think the point they're getting at is that their Prophets must be appointed by God if they put it to the test to this extent, and hey, they might just have a point, I don't know. Any Mormons around here that can clarify this? A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him." John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author
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  Pork Chop

  The funniest thing about Mormon Elders is that they wear little name tags that say "Elder Bloggs" or whatever. I completely lost it the first time I saw that.
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  Double Edge

  I sat through a Morman church service several months ago with one of my friends and at the beginning of the service, after the announcements, a couple of guys were appointed (ordained?) elders and the audience was asked to vote on it....
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  Beck_Melbourne

  Hey Refiners...are you going all Mormoney on us??? Wassup with that?? How many wives are you planning on having?? Just remember this...I will only be NUMBER one wife or nada!! Got that??

  Okay, now where's Prisca, I want to announce her demoted status.

  ~Beck~
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  KD

  Well each church has a Bishop chosen from the hierarchy to serve for I believe 5 years? He has people who serve under him. This hierarchy chooses people to do jobs within the church and hold each position for a year or longer if needed. Actually the religion itself feels that all members must hold positions to keep busy in the organization. Hence one of the symbols of the church is the honey bee. So when a member is approached to do a job, he or she is told they were chosen by the "Heavenly Father" to do this service. The person is then in a fix to do this task or disobey the will of the "Heavenly Father". The membership will vote by raising their hands. Of course everyone will raise their hand because it was God that chose that person, even thought it was really decided by people in governing positions. Each person is in a way obligated to vote in favor or go against the will of God.

  I actually asked a lot of questions when ever I met with the "Kid Elders" . It would piss them off big time because I would not accept what they were teaching at face value. They would say that I was not praying hard enough. If I prayed harder then I would see it or the holy spirit would explain it for me. I would then flip open the book of Acts and show how the Bereans question many things also. They would get even more pissed!!

  Well enough of this, if I don't stop I may write my own Mormon book.
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  SusanHere

  Hi, again. Thank you for your thoughtful and correct response, Rev. Yes, we do all things by common consent, which means, basically, we vote. And as you said, we do have the duty and responsibility to either sustain or oppose any and all callings and priesthood advancements proposed. Should we have a valid reason for being unable to support someone in a calling, it is our responsibility to oppose the calling. If even one person in a congregation raises a hand in opposition, the calling cannot be sustained until there is a chance for all the concerns to be heard and then and only then would any sustaining be able to either go forward, by again bringing it to a vote, or be dismissed.

  If we do sustain someone, we are saying we will do all we can to support them in that calling. Not a promise to be taken lightly.

  And yes, we are told that nothing is to be accepted as being from God until we ask him and receive personal witness that it actually is. Most times we know as soon as we hear it, because the Holy Ghost bears witness immediately. But, when there is doubt, it is our responsibility to go and ask of God.

  Whenever anyone hears anything that doesn't seem right, such as in a class, it is his/her responsibility to ask about it right then. Questions are always welcome. Better to ask than to let doubts and concerns build up until one's entire view of the Church becomes distorted. Our people are no shrinking violets when it comes to correcting teachers or challenging local leaders who seem to be off track.

  These things are taken very seriously by most members. We do get those who don't take much of anything spiritual seriously, but you'll find those kinds everywhere, in every religion. Everyone is very individual within the congregation, and that's the way we like it.

  OOPS! Just saw that someone else posted, so am editing to respond...The people are chosen from within the congregation, yes. There is no time limit on callings. Bishops can serve for any length of time, there is nothing set. Our Stake President is on his 11th year in that calling. Some callings last only a matter of weeks. Others years. There is no doubt the callings are inspired, but the individual must always weigh the matter prayerfully prior to accepting or rejecting. They are free to do either one. Callings are refused more often than anyone other than the Bishopric would ever know since there is no need to make it known who has been offered one until it has been accepted and comes before the congregation for a vote. There are always those members who, for reasons of their own, just want to coast a while, letting others carry all the burden. It's a choice.

  Hope that helps...

  Susan

  Edited by - SusanHere on 10 October 2002 21:59:55
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  refiners fire

  Pork Chop first:

  "...The funniest thing about Mormon Elders is that they wear little name tags that say "Elder Bloggs"....

  When I said "Elders" ,I meant "leaders", I was putting the post into Witness terms. In Mormon world an "elder" is the equivalent of a "pioneer" (near as I can tell) So a Witness "elder" is called a "bishop" in Mormon world and a witness "pioneer' is called an "elder" in Mormon world. I could be generalizing here and if Im in error let Susan correct me.

  Susan seems to be of the opinion that each member of the church does indeed seek a "personal confirmation" thru the Holy Spirit of each appointment that is proposed from the stage. And the holy spirit speaks to all hundred or so individuals in the hall and confirms to each of them that the proposed appointment is of God. I have serious doubts about this being so. Why, if that were true, The Mormon church would indeed be Gods organization on earth. I wonder if the proposed appointments are announced sometime previously to being nominated from the public stage?? So that people can go home and prayerfully meditate upon the matter over the course of a week or a few days. Or are they proposed live without foreknowledge on the part of the church body? If they are proposed without the bodies foreknowledge, all hundred people in the church must get an INSTANTANEOUS response from spirit confirming the proposition as Gods Will. Truly a miracle.

  Myself, Im inclined to see it all as mass compliance. Im inclined to agree with the position of "KD" :

  ..."So when a member is approached to do a job, he or she is told they were chosen by the "Heavenly Father" to do this service. The person is then in a fix to do this task or disobey the will of the "Heavenly Father"....

  Hard to say no, when GOD commands you to the position

  ..."Of course everyone will raise their hand because it was God that chose that person, even thought it was really decided by people in governing positions. Each person is in a way obligated to vote in favor or go against the will of God."....

  Thats about the way I see it too. I recall once I was at a mormon meeting and the bishop got up and released some women "from service", then he immediately reappointed them into service in other jobs!!

  Salvation thru works is the motto of Mormonism. There is nothing more exhausted looking than an exhausted Mormon. Unless its an exhausted "boston" member
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  plmkrzy

  I mean, who else tells you "Don't believe a word I say unless God administers the fact himself".

  The same guy that tells you your going to hell unless you have the same revelations as he .

  Sorry but I gotta laugh at some of the stuff they, and all other religions, manage to come up with.

  I would imagine his statements that impresses you would later let you down when you find out they are as fulfilling as the "electoral votes"
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  refiners fire

  I mean, who else tells you "Don't believe a word I say unless God administers the fact himself".

  Hey Palm, I wonder what these "facts" are in this case. What facts confirm that an appointee is "Gods choice"?? I bet you 10 bucks the key criteria is GROWTH or EXPANSION. Thats all organizations like the dubs, (and, I bet, the Momos) care about. Whether the org grew this year, or whether it declined in membership.