Mormons ELECT their ELDERS

by refiners fire 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  plmkrzy

  I bet you 10 bucks the key criteria is GROWTH or EXPANSION.

  LOL, no...I'll keep my money.
• 

  RevMalk

  	refiners fire: And the holy spirit speaks to all hundred or so individuals in the hall and confirms to each of them that the proposed appointment is of God. I have serious doubts about this being so. Why, if that were true, The Mormon church would indeed be Gods organization on earth." I know I'm going to get hammered for what I'm about to say, but that's ok. Just realize (everyone), before I say it, that it is only my opinion and nothing more, please. Thanks! Ok, as a child I remember having trouble accepting the JW doctrine. Not such things as Paradise, the 144,000 (and one?), Not even so much as the false Prophecies (of course these claims I was told were untrue). Anyway, the problem I had was "Who died and made Pastor Russell boss??". WHO appointed Russell to his position? I didn't care, even at 10 years old, that he had what I believed to be the accurate knowledge, it didn't matter to me, because in my eyes, mind and heart he was not appointed to the role he TOOK. I could buy that God would appoint a modern day Prophet, but I couldn't buy that a modern day Prophet is allowed to appoint himself. Pastor Russell said himself that the truth is the truth no matter if it comes from Satan himself, and I think those are the most truthful, honest, intelligent words that ever came out of his mouthpiece, perhaps the only truth. Satan knows more about God and salvation and Glory and Grace than we'll probably ever know. So is Satan the "Truth"? 10 years old, I have to worry about these things. Anyway, my problem was that there was no divine nature to this so called appointment by Christ. Christ didn't come to earth, Christ didn't talk to the Pastor, nothing, Nada......he got a 'feeling'. So what! I get feelings all the time. For a while I had the feeling I was going to heaven (still do), so I assumed that that meant I was of the anointed class, but that couldn't be, I wasn't even going to the hall at the time. The point was, I knew I was going to heaven, God knew and Christ knew, but it didn't mean I was among the 144,000, obviously. I have just always felt that an appointment by Christ would be more divine, and Christ's people would feel that as much as the chosen Prophet himself. I felt that if God were to appoint a man on this planet to be his mouthpiece he would inform that man with more than a 'feeling'. Ok, I know, I'm babbling, you get my point. So the statement above is exactly how I thought it should be....the Holy Spirit speaking to 100 or so individuals. If Christ restored his Church on earth, of course he'd speak to that amount at once, even more! The entire Mormon Doctrine and History is exactly as I thought it should be, even at a young age. The visit to Joseph by Christ himself, the fact that Joseph made so many Prophecies that came true. The fact that he knew things that we didn't know until just a few years ago (mostly health issues). So, I started studying with the Elders (and yes, they'd be like JW pioneers, except they leave home to serve a mission), and I prayed and prayed and prayed like they told me to. See, they don't rely on their own knowledge so much as guidance from the Holy Spirit. They even told me this - "We can't make you believe, that's not what we're here for. We're here to bring you the message, and from there it's between you and God". So, like I said I prayed and Prayed.....finally got an answer! Never felt something so strongly, never felt so good in my life! It was an emotional experience, one I'll never forget. My business was also in a bit of a financial 'situation' at the time. I was never so blessed, business had quadrupled, even more. Life was good, it felt good to be alive, it felt good to know that Christ was with me, and loved me and was my best friend. I will probably never feel so good again. We had scheduled a Baptism, as a matter of fact my wife and I were going to be Baptized in the same place as Joseph Smith, and where my Great-Grandmother was born and raised (I always wanted to go there, so it was extra special to me at the time). Anyway to make a short story long, my in-laws were concerned. Not that it would be a bad thing to become Mormon, they just didn't want us to rush into things. So, I promised I would look on the net one last time before we were Baptized. I had nothing to fear, I had looked and looked and looked. By the way, the ex-Mormons have nothing much to go on. It's not like here, they may be a large organized religion with some internal problems, but they've pretty much stayed the course throughout history. Anyway, so I found something that rubbed me wrong, and we cancelled our Baptism and haven't been back since. I'm miserable, it nags at me still, and probably always will. The brunt of my business has completely failed me and I'm left once again confused. What can I say? I guess it struck me that refiners had to say this: Well, IF (and that's a big IF) God's true Organization were on Earth at this very moment, IMHO, it would HAVE to be the Ladder Day Saints. I come to this conclusion through personal experience, feeling the gift of the Holy Spirit, and what I deem common sense based on my experiences as a child. You know it's funny, children have a way of looking at things, so simple and clear, without all this 'information' clouding their minds. I saw it clear back then. I felt that the Watchtower was the False Prophet, the Anti-Christ if you will, and I also knew that I would find the truth one day, and I knew in my heart that the Truth would be similar to the JWs. I guess I assumed this because if the Anti-Christ were to try and take God's people, he would use every Avenue, even that of mimicking God's True Prophet (I believe the Bible even vaguely implies this, but I'm not sure). So I spent my life with my eyes open, waiting....So, whether the Truth is the Mormons, or whether the true Prophet has not come yet, I don't know for sure. At this point I'm not sure of anything anymore. But I do know one thing. Alot of people here on the Board mock all these religions without knowing a thing about them. Unless you're all convinced there is no God, don't ever just assume someone is wrong and crazy because you never know where God might be. I also wanted to mention that I was very intrigued by the fact that Mormons feel that most if not all of humanity is saved to some Glory, and that there is some good in all religions. Of course they believe their way is the truth, and they should, or they wouldn't have any business being Mormon. But they don't look down on any of us, it's nice, and to any Mormons out there, know that it's appreciated. So before you go bashing (not that anyone was) another religion, at least read up on them and see what they're all about, because a blind eye is as bad if not worse than blind faith. Ok, let the hammering begin..... A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him. John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author

  Edited by - Revmalk on 11 October 2002 9:6:51
• 

  refiners fire

  hey REV. Im not bashing you. Your posts seem pretty reasonable to me. Long as we understand that.But there are a couple of things in yout post that caught my eye.

  ..."So, like I said I prayed and Prayed.....finally got an answer! Never felt something so strongly, never felt so good in my life! It was an emotional experience, one I'll never forget. My business was also in a bit of a financial 'situation' at the time"....

  I suspect a Classic "crisis conversion" sitiation. A lot of people get convinced of Christs saving power during a time of personal stress. Numerous authors have written about this, Arthur Koestler for one, and especially William Sargant in "Battle for the mind". And this too:

  ..."By the way, the ex-Mormons have nothing much to go on. its not like here, they may be a large organized religion with some internal problems, but they've pretty much stayed the course throughout history"......

  Id probably disagree with this. The Momos think Joe Smith was a holy Christlike figure, but he looks more like a cult founder to me. I base this conclusion on reading Fawn Brodies "No Man knows my history". Like a lot of cult leaders, Joe concocted doctrine that allowed him to have sex with other mens wives. According to Brodie he had at least 37 "wives" . I just dont like the guy. There are problems with his first revelation too, as to when it occured, church history dictates that it occured when he was 14?, I think, But the evidence indicated the revelation was concocted later then backdated. Evidence supporting that theory is in a book by John Brooke called "Refiners Fire". So, Im pretty skeptical of Official Mormon history.

  I confess there are things about Mormonism that I do like. But Ive made up my mind that if God wants me, He will have to deal with me personally. Im not following any other MANS dictates again. Attending endless meetings, and engaging in organizationally dictated "works" to gain my salvation. The mormons use dissonant mind altering techniques during recruitment too. I know this for a fact, because Ive experienced them firsthand. So, I condemn their organization on this one ground alone.

  Thanks for posting to me, by the way.

  Edited by - refiners fire on 11 October 2002 18:7:23
• 

  Double Edge

  Rev, I enjoyed your post. How do you get that cool green border?
• 

  JosephMalik

  So, I started studying with the Elders (and yes, they'd be like JW pioneers, except they leave home to serve a mission),

  RevMalk,

  I know our Lord selected 12 apostles. And I know that he accepted disciples to follow him. But I never read where He appointed Elders or established an official position in the faith for any disciple that we can call Elder.

  Now among Jews, elders were just that, respected older men to which others may look for guidance. So the position was natural and not official or a requirement. Apostles other than the 12 Christ selected could be made such by a congregation to carry out a mission such as Antioch did for Paul when they selected him and several others to speak for them. Such appointments were for specific purposes and not permanent official positions. This did not make them one of the 12 nor did it authorize them to appoint others to carry on after them. Only Christ could select them as He did personally with Paul.

  But Elders that could appoint other Elders were only appointed by Paul, or those that Paul laid his hands on and appointed for the purpose of making further appointments. And the laying on of hands was essential to such an appointment. They conveyed the authority of Paul and were trained by him. When Paul died we lost the use of his hands. No other apostle appointed Elders to represent them. None. This was Paul's ministry and such appointments ended with him.

  So how is it that we have such Elders today. Paul is dead. We no longer have use of his hands or any person authorized by him to do this work? What is going on here?

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 12 October 2002 0:8:47

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 12 October 2002 0:16:38
• 

  avengers

  I know I'm going to get hammered for what I'm about to say

  Hey, let's get hammered together.
• 

  refiners fire

  Hey Fish man.

  I see you are nearly a jedi. Congrats brother.

  Now stop trolling this "serious" thread .

  (lol)
• 

  RevMalk

  	JosephMalik: I know our Lord selected 12 apostles. And I know that he accepted disciples to follow him. But I never read where He appointed Elders or established an official position in the faith for any disciple that we can call Elder. The problem with this statement is that you're trying to tie the hands of God and Bind him by the History contained in 66 small books. History that of course is limited as to detail. The Bible never spoke of the name of Jesus either, until the old Testament, and he was refused by the Jews. Ok, so it spoke of the messiah, but it never spoke of him having a bowel movement, and I'd bet my life that he did. But since the Bible doesn't speak of it, I should hold it in? My point is that we can't decide when and if and why God would appoint someone for a special purpose, or when and if and why God would re-instate a particular 'policy' or 'procedure'. Besides the fact that the Bible is in no way pure, and hasn't been for a long long time, so how do we really know what it says? If one thing can be changed, so can alot more. I am NOT a Mormon, and probably never will be. My point is just that IMO, they're the 'closest' to the truth, or I should say the closest 'fit' in this day. Does that make them the truth, absolutely not......but you never know for sure. JosephMalik: When Paul died we lost the use of his hands. No other apostle appointed Elders to represent them. None. This was Paul's ministry and such appointments ended with him. God has many times 'ended' certain procedures, and then later on re-instated them. I think there's not many that will argue the fact we are in the last days, or pretty close anyway. If ever there were a time for re-instating miracles and prophecies, and apostles, and what have you, I think it's now, or in the near future. But again, how do I know? It's just my opinion. And again, the Bible is all messed up, who knows what it really says or means? JosephMalik: So how is it that we have such Elders today. Paul is dead. We no longer have use of his hands or any person authorized by him to do this work? What is going on here? IF the Mormons are correct, that was re-instated with Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon would be our modern day guide, and we'd have these miracles, prophecies and Apostles. Again, I'm not saying it's true, but if we KNEW for a fact that Jesus Church has been re-instated, then it would seem feasible that this is exactly how God would do it. New Prophets, new writings, new Apostles, etc etc etc. Every other time in History that something great was about to happen pertaining to God, this is how it was done. Why, with the most important Historical event since Adam, would things be different now? You could be right Refiners, I won't argue the point. The only thing is, I'm aware of this possibility, and that's one reason why I didn't go through with Baptism. The problem is, however, what if they're right? What if they are the Truth, and I walked away because I got cold feet? Wow, judgment day is going to REALLY suck for me! Haha, I've been studying the LDS History since 1986, I've gone back and forth, spent countless hours researching. The thing is, 90% of what they teach is what I already learned through studies on my own, and through Prayer. The other 10%? Well, that's what I got hung up on. See, I think if this were a case of "crisis conversion" I wouldn't have gone through so much detail "making sure", and I probably wouldn't have gotten hung up on the 10%. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm humble, and I know I'm not perfect. I must admit, part of the "10%" was based on Joseph. I am leery of him, but I am of anyone who claims such things. I don't know anything about him sleeping with other men's wives, but I do know that he had several wives, so did Brigham Young and all the rest up until the 1800's. That alone doesn't bother me, God has allowed this in the past. What does bother me though is the similarities between the Free Masonry Ceremonies, and the Mormon Temple Ceremonies. That's when I stopped everything. Everything else I found, which may not be all of it didn't bother me. The so called false prophecies, the Book of Mormon, the first vision discrepancies. They can all be rationalized, and I suppose the ceremonies could too, but that was the last straw. As for the Book of Mormon, the guy was in his early 20's tops, he could not have written the book on his own. It was definitely inspired by a greater power. Trouble is, who was this power? One thing that caught my attention in the first place to Mormonism, was the fact that if they're not true, then we have several men who are out and out liars. The Apostles would not only have to be wrong, but they're have to be liars. Not like Pastor Russell, I believe 100% that at some point anyway, he really believed in himself. With the Mormons, they claim to speak with God.....so if they're not true, than every one of them are lying, and not once has any Church Apostle/Prophet come back to claim it wasn't true. Some have fallen, but even still, never claimed it was wrong. Is this possible that for almost 200 years all these men could go on with this lie and never once did it come out? I don't know.....perhaps, perhaps not. So, I'm still here, in Square on this subject. A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him." John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author
• 

  JosephMalik

  JosephMalik: I know our Lord selected 12 apostles. And I know that he accepted disciples to follow him. But I never read where He appointed Elders or established an official position in the faith for any disciple that we can call Elder.

  The problem with this statement is that you're trying to tie the hands of God and Bind him by the History contained in 66 small books

  Rev Malk

  That is all that concerns me. And since you cannot provide any information to support your view then the answer is obvious. I am not concerned with what the book or Mormon teaches as I do not accept it as an inspired work.

  JosephMalik: When Paul died we lost the use of his hands. No other apostle appointed Elders to represent them. None. This was Paul's ministry and such appointments ended with him.

  God has many times 'ended' certain procedures, and then later on re-instated them. . . .And again, the Bible is all messed up, who knows what it really says or means?

  Again the point made was avoided. God did not end this procedure Paul did with his death. It was his ministry and his method of bringing order in the chaos that existed at the time.

  JosephMalik: So how is it that we have such Elders today. Paul is dead. We no longer have use of his hands or any person authorized by him to do this work? What is going on here?

  IF the Mormons are correct, that was re-instated with Joseph Smith.

  So you must ignore the clear teaching of scripture to justify it. There was never a gap in the faith that needed to be restored. All denominations ever claiming to be Christian represent the faith. Some just do it poorly and will be judged accordingly when our Lord returns. It is that simple. Not much different from the way things were then.

  Joseph Malik
• 

  RevMalk

  	Well, like I said. I'm not here to argue Mormonism, nor to defend it. I don't believe the Bible is correct. There's so much proof that it's been adulterated. How can I put faith in it? Was it protected by God? NO. Was it saved by God? NO. Was it written by God? NO. Ok, so where does that lead us? Only our hearts and faith in Christ can lead us. A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him." John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author