Update from Ray Franz

by Amazing 50 Replies latest jw friends

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk

    I was preparing to post on the following quote, when I noticed Perry had addressed it already. This is my concern exactly:

    I found the above statement, to stretch my imagination a bit. The part that I have particular trouble with is, "nor did it ever come up nor get discussed". ... Your quote of him makes it appear that Ray never had a conversation about pedophilia in all his 40 years of service. Do you think this would be confirmed by Ray if he was asked to elaborate?

    Ray noted that in his entire 40 years of fulltime service (from age 19 to age 59 when he resigned in 1980 from the Governing Body) he never once dealt with a case of molestation, pedophilia or incest and that such a case was never presented to him at anytime, nor did it ever come up or get discussed.

    This is impossible for me to believe. You can't tell me that the amount of service this guy has put into the Watchtower, that's he's never so much as had a conversation about it. Now what am I suppose to believe? Ray has done some great things, but this is flat out not the truth, or he's losing his memory. Come on, this is impossible. I know you said the issue never came up until the 80s in your situation Amazing, but you also never served on the GB, and probably never traveled to the extent of Ray Franz. If I didn't know better (or maybe I don't), it would seem as though he's hiding something. I know I'll get hammered for that statement, but realize it's an observation of the situation not the man, since I don't even know him. I don't want to speculate on things, since that's not fair to Ray, but it could be as simple as guilt and embarrassment for not trying to do something about it when he was in the position. I've been thinking about this more and more. Ray mentions every other problem in Bethel and with the GB while he served, except for the child molestation issue, and their policy. Could it be possible that Ray feels bad for not trying his best to make changes, so in that case he denies that he knew anything? Or maybe he agreed with the policy at one time and doesn't want the embarrassment of people realizing this? I mean, if that's the case I don't blame him, but you can't tell me that in 40 years he never so much as discussed the issue.

    A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him." John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author

    Edited by - Revmalk on 11 October 2002 16:37:13

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Hi Amazing,

    Would it be stepping over the line to suggest that perhaps the next time you speak with Ray you could ask him specifically about the Greenlees case?

    I'm not suggesting that Ray would intentionally misstate his history with the WTS, but that these unsavory events may not be foremost in his mind. Perhaps Ray can be helped to see that the Greenlees case is very relevant in the work of SilentLambs.

    I think Maximus made a statement once to the effect that Ray took no pleasure in discussing such issues.

    By the way, does anyone know how Maximus and his wife are doing?

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 11 October 2002 9:53:39

  • Dismembered
    Dismembered

    Thanks again Amazing

    Dismembered

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi RevMalk:

    I know you said the issue never came up until the 80s in your situation Amazing, but you also never served on the GB, and probably never traveled to the extent of Ray Franz. If I didn't know better (or maybe I don't), it would seem as though he's hiding something.

    Serving on the GB is not as relevant as serving on a Body of Elders or a Judicial Committee. Why? Because as Elders, if and when we dealt with an issue requiring help from the Society, we did not call the Governing Body, but we called the Service Desk, received answers from the Service Desk or Legal Department. We did not call and ask for some specific GB man to seek out his advice on this issue, or any other issue. Some individual Elders might know a GB member and call for private conversation. Ray may have had some calls, but their content must have been other topics ...

    To assume that Ray must have dealt with this issue, and insist he must have simply due to speculative reasoning is not fundamentally reasonable. He has no reason to hide anything, and if he did, his best bet would be to have acted as other former GB members like Greenlees and Chitty, and simply write nothing and say nothing and get lost ... no he went public with all he had ... he just simply does not have anything on the issue of pedophilia ... and all the insisting and wishing in the world that he 'must have' will not make it so.

    As for traveling, it is always possible that he could have had some incidential conversation somewhere, at sometime ... but if true, it was not enough to remember ... Ray Franz is very conscience of being honest and true to facts, and if he recalled something, I am sure he would have said so ...

    ... secondly, you assume that he is more well traveled than I am. By what rationale do you arrive at that conclusion? What I am trying to make an issue of is how easy it is to let speculation to run amuck. Assuming facts not in evidence or known is dangerous ... and this is a time to be most sober now that lawyers and judges and courts are getting involved ... we must be sure to be most factual.

    ... thirdly, being more "traveled" is not necessarily a formula for having discussions about pedophilia. Traveling meant a lot of interactions, and Ray reported on these, but the issues were about other matters ... and that is quite reasonable and feasible and wanting it to be something else does not give us the right to insist that it must be something else ... or to assume Ray has anything to hide.

    ... finally, he has made direct statements to direct questions by me. Given his track record, and knowing him, I trust him. If you have additional questions and want to ask, then you can write to him as I gave out his address. I cannot think of every question everyone might have, and I don't want to call him everyday with many more questions. I think others should write to him and ask themselves and then make a post ...

    Edited by - Amazing on 11 October 2002 10:10:49

  • morrisamb
    morrisamb

    I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that a Witness might not comment or discuss sexual abuse over a period of 40 years...of course, I'm prejudiced by my story.

    Consider this small part of my book...this is what I wrote about a time period immediately after our sexual abuse case goes public...meaning people outside the congregation know about it (while many in the congregation have known about it for 8 years at this point) in 1981...

    Take it for what it's worth...

    Father's Touch, Chapter 28

    .....Reinforced by these kind gestures and convincing myself I should conduct my life as if nothing had happened, a couple of days later I nervously drive my family to our first religious meeting since the press release. We enter and sit quietly. No one mentions it. No one in the entire congregation tells us that they care. No one says they will pray for us. It feels as if I am living in the twilight zone, as if nothing has happened. Are we being shunned because of Fathers sin?

    Or are they scared as hell of our circumstances? Do they not know how to act? I hoped that they would support our courage. I just wanted people to understand why we are different from everyone else and that it isnt our fault.

    How predictable. I have been raised to live as though nothing happened and when the truth finally comes out, the majority of people behave as if nothing happened.

    Copyright, Father's Touch, Donald D'Haene 2002

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Nathan:

    Would it be stepping over the line to suggest that perhaps the next time you speak with Ray you could ask him specifically about the Greenlees case?

    I could. It is not stepping over the line to ask more. And when I talk to him again, I will try to remember. Or you can write to him at the Commentary Press address I posted above.

    I'm not suggesting that Ray would intentionally misstate his history with the WTS, but that these unsavory events may not be foremost in his mind. Perhaps Ray can be helped to see that the Greenlees case is very relevant in the work of SilentLambs.

    One post suggested that five GB members are possibly guilty of acts of pedophilia. I knew of one before the recent postings, and it was not Greenlees or Jaracz. So, while I am no friend of the Watchtower Society, I also don't want to libel or slander people who may not be guilty. I am totally convinced that if Ray knew anything, he would be talking to the right people to get the facts out in the open ... and the fact that he does not remember strongly suggests to me that he just does not have any useful or factual information.

    I think Maximus made a statement once to the effect that Ray took no pleasure in discussing such issues. ... By the way, does anyone know how Maximus and his wife are doing?

    Ray does not like to talk about people with speculations, conjecture or gossip. When it comes to people's reputations, he is fair and will not give into saying things that he does not know to be factual and true. When it comes time to stand tall and tell the truth, then we see things like Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom, which speak well of who Ray is ... and that track record is hard to beat.

    Edited by - Amazing on 11 October 2002 10:26:27

  • kelsey007
    kelsey007

    Might I ask why anyone would be concerned as to whether Mr Franz had been privy to knowledge of a pediphile case? Even though I served as a servant in the congregation and I later learned that there were two accused (one had a conviction a later learned) in the congregation serving a pioneers, and I had a good relationship with the others on the servant body- none shared such information. Most of the congregation probably thought that I knew everything about everyone in the congregation- this was far from true. And, a lot of what I thought I knew was based more on rumor and conjecture than any statements shared with me by someone in a position to have known facts. What I did learn about the rank and file is that the congregation was a "gossip mill". Not much dif than I note here- someone would voice a speculation- maybe a servants wife, then the comments would take on a life of it's own. By the time Sis publisher heard the conjecture it was stated as undisputable fact. Then reputations were ruined- people were "marked" by the rank and file and so on. I saw as many people effectively shunned by judgements of the rank and file as I did by judgements of a JC.

    Just hours after the march on brooklyn a post was made stating that a lady had accused a GB member of sexual abuse- grooming children for sex slaves and being involved in a satanic cult. Weeks later someone posted what was claimed as a word for word transcript of this ladies comments. After reading this "transcript" (taken at face value as true) I found that the earlier post was very misleading as to the allegations this lady made. Did I misread the supposed transcript? Or did the poster of this transcript edit out certain things or mistype certain lines? I have no way of knowing. But I did learn the lesson not to put a lot of credibility in what is posted as fact. Another poster accused me of being a JW in good standing- had I not responded to this false allegation which was posted as a certain fact- how many here having read this lie would believe this lie to be truth?

    Not trying to beat a dead horse- but the point is- as amazing has brought out- conjecture, rumor, gossip does hurt innocent people.

  • Valis
    Valis

    Amazing, thanks for taking the time to speak w/Ray and post all the important information regading this topic en toto...

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hi, everybody

    I don't find it surprising that Ray was never confronted with having to deal with child molestation issues specifically.

    It is my observation that prior to the early 1980s people just didn't talk much about child abuse issues outside seeking medical help if their children were involved. General society in most developed nations has come of age on this issue over the past 20 years or so.

    Part of my personal experience in dealing with child molestation has been dealing with quite a few congregation publishers who decades ago experienced child molestation themselves or in their family. When explaining why they didn't come forward at the time, quite often these individuals would say things like, "People back then just didn't talk about these kinds of things outside the immediate family," or, "Back then families dealt with this kind of thing their own way." I get similar responses from women who experienced abusive husbands. Today a woman is far more likely to seek help outside the family for abuse than she was decades ago, at least that is my personal observation, and that observation coincides with what healthcare professionals in my area tell me too.

    Another part of my experience comes from open and frank discussions of child molestation with fellow elders, which tend to speak frankly in close company. Those we tend to refer to as "old-timers" are invariably surprised by what is going on these days in the number of child molestation cases. Almost to the man these old timers will tell you the same thing. They say things like, "We didn' t have this problem way back," or, "I bet this is what happened with So-and-so and they never told us," or, "I can only remember one other time where I had to deal with this." This lack of experience by old-timers coincides exactly with my observations of victims of child molestation from the same general period. Victims often didn't report to anyone other than the family doctor, and they swore him or her to silence. Elders almost never heard of it for the same reason. This led to a circumstance where too often elders failed to recognize symptoms of child molestation in victims because of ignorance.

    Over the last two decades practically every aspect of society has grown in awareness of and understanding child molestation as an issue. Accordingly, over that same period we see that federal and state governments and peer review groups have instituted new laws or guidelines to better fit the need that was there all along but that so few had good awareness of. Unfortunately, for reasons only they can answer for, during the same period the WTS stopped short of instituting one of the most recognized and simplest of provisions that would have (and still could!) alleviate much of the suffering and reduce future suffering. This would be a policy provision that victims of child abuse living in developed nations should ALWAYS be encouraged to report their victimization to authorities. How to deal with reporting policies in nations with retarded social and political growth (e.g., Iran, Iraq, etc.) is the difficult question. What should be done in terms of reporting or encouragement to report in developed lands is a no-brainer. The WTS is shamed for its failure in this instance. The only reason for its current policy, which does not ALWAYS encourage victims to report, can only be a bad reason. As for Ray, my experience tells me his comments as reported by Jim are the norm; it's what I would have expected to hear from anyone in the WTS' organization from Ray's period of reference.

    Probably unlike most that post here (but like a few, for sure), I have sat personally and spoken with Ray and his wife, Cynthia about many issues. These are among the most honest, caring and, yes, God fearing people I know. To even think either of these people would support any policy that has the effect the WTS' does on victims of child molestation is outrageous to me. It is inconceivable to me that Ray would condone undisclosed facts about victimization at the hands of the WTS. If he knew them he would tell them. But then again, I've only sat and talked with Ray and Cynthia in person to measure their dynamics for myself, besides reading what Ray has put to writing.

    Edited by - Marvin Shilmer on 11 October 2002 11:57:38

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Marvin: Excellent points, well stated, and on the money. Thanks very much. Later today or tomorrow I will be posting a very painful post, but I feel has become necessary in light of the recent developments.

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