Update from Ray Franz (page 4)

Room 215

Personally, I find it disheartening that some insist on regurgitating this matter. It all began with Bowen's misapprehension about Ray Franz's. which they have resolved amicably, and that's where it should have ended.

Amazing

Hi Room 215: I was told by some that Ray did not answer one important question regarding his authorship of the "two witness" rule. It was stated strong enough to me that I agreed to ask him and post about it. It is not regurgitating, rehashing, and beating a dead horse ... and Bills' comments were more than mere disagreement ... what took place was serious, and potential libel ... deserving fair and open treatment ...

... many people have many views, questions, and thoughts, and it seems a fair usage of a couple of posts to air these openly and fairly ... it will pass as have other issues ... thanks for your points.

Dismembered

In short The Times They Are A Changin'

Dismembered

RevMalk

I didn't mean to imply that the guy was lying. My intentions were that we don't know the guy. Some do of course, and they have different reasons to believe what they believe. I merely am pointing out that we don't know. Who knows what drives people to say and do things, we're all human. I also have stated in other threads that all this doesn't really matter. It was a disagreement of sorts, and hopefully it's over. I think it's not wise to believe on over the other for any of us. I also think perhaps Bill shouldn't have said what he said, but people screw up, it happens. Although on the other hand perhaps he did have reason to say those things, I don't know, don't really care. I know the purpose of the whole thing is the cause, and that's that. I have suggested in other threads Bill appoint a Board of Directors, apparently that idea isn't that popular, but it would help him out a great deal, and it may restore some faith that some people once had in the silentlambs organization. It certainly wouldn't stop anyone from voicing their own opinion, but it will help in other areas. For instance, the Letter Bill Wrote the Governing Body (or whoever it was to), that everyone had a problem with. I showed it to an Attorney friend of mine, and was told that there was absolutely not one legal problem with the letter. It didn't appear to have any great impact power, of course, but absolutely no problem with it otherwise. Yet everyone went crazy over it, for no good reason. Calling names, insulting intelligence, the whole nine yards. You all know, you saw it. And yet as far as the legalities, everyone was dead wrong. So, can people misjudge, misunderstand, and make mistakes. Yep - So maybe we should just all get on with it and cut the crap.
Frankly, the stress Bill endured for no reason over that stupid letter may have sent him over the edge. Maybe he just screwed up. Maybe he didn't screw up, I don't know anymore. I just know that all this bickering is insane.
A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him." John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author

Edited by - Revmalk on 11 October 2002 13:7:20

larc

Room 215,

I think this has continued because someone stated that they could not believe that Ray had never dealt with the issue in forty years. Amazing pointed out quite clearly how this could be the case from an organizational perspective. In any large organization, there are bad things going on at lower levels that the top of the organization never knows about. Negative information is filtered out on its way to the top. Marvin pointed out how such information was rarely discussed openly before 1980. Having clear memories of the 50's, 60's, and 70's, I can vouch for Marvin's observations. So, both in terms of societal changes and the organizational dynamics of the religion, it is very clear to me that Ray's statement is very credible. I have had the opportunity to spend six days with Ray and his wife at a group retreat. My impressions are the same as others. Ray and his wife are kind people and Christians in the very best sense of the word. I have also spent a weekend with Bill Bowen and his wife. They, also are fine people. It is clear to me, that they are from a different era than Ray and his wife, and this may account for the misunderstanding between them, and even the difference in strategy in dealing with Watchtower wrongs.

Perry

Amazing,

Could it be that Ray was talking about never having opportunity to look at the issue in an official capacity? Perhaps he may have even more narrowly restricted his answer to apply to the short time that he was a GB member?

I guess I was just curious about the context of the quote and if you felt it may have had a bearing on what he meant. You stated that you accurately reproduced his comments. I do not doubt this but simply wondered if an alternate interpretation could be meant in view of the context.

Is it possible that the context of his reply could narrow the answer to simply mean it never came up for discussion while he was serving in some capacity so as to effect the policy's application or lack thereof?

waiting

Hey Marvin,

publishers who decades ago experienced child molestation themselves or in their family. When explaining why they didn't come forward at the time, quite often these individuals would say things like, "People back then just didn't talk about these kinds of things outside the immediate family," or, "Back then families dealt with this kind of thing their own way." I get similar responses from women who experienced abusive husbands - marvin

I concur completely. I'm 52, but when I was explaining to a young woman of 25 that I was date raped just like her, but didn't tell anyone - she was incredulous. How could I NOT report him? "Report what? Back then, it didn't even have a name. It was called 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time.'"

The young woman still wouldn't accept my lack of action - until other women in the incest group my age confirmed that "it was just different 'back then.'" In fact, the guy who committed the date rape apologized to me for his actions, decades later, when he was in a police class (he's a detective) and it dealt with identifying date rape. He then realized what he'd done to me - 30 years previously....when it was accepted by people that this type of sexual abuse does happen - and people talked openly about it.

Not everything's cut & dried. Sex, by it's very nature, is messy.

waiting

ThiChi

Thanks for the information. You have really done a great service for the efforts of truth and fairness.

Edited by - thichi on 11 October 2002 13:4:36

jwsons

quote from Crisis of Conscience (3rd edition,page130):

"By now,Ewart Chitty was no longer a member of the Body,having submitted his resignation in accord with the Governing Body's wishes."

Why ? Find more at the ending of this following link:

http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:LL-QqffUakgC:www.angelfire.com/home/dkmcoc/coc/cocchapter6.html+cocchapter6.html+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

jwsons

ThiChi

The problem with this information is that it points to Ray as protecting the Society because the WT excludes Homosexuals. So what? From a Biblical viewpoint, this alone does not make the WT "wrong."

All this is just "hearsay" at this point.

Edited by - thichi on 11 October 2002 13:48:17

Update from Ray Franz

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