Hi Everyone,
I have a simulated discussion with Chris, a Christian and John, a Witness on my web site. They discuss whether Jesus is really a Master Worker. See what you think.
http://www.towertotruth.net/masterworkerPt1.htm
Tower Man
Is Jesus God's Master Worker?
by Tower Man 19 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Siddhashunyata
The discussion demonstrates how absurd it is to try to find truth through ideas. There is no peace except through direct knowing. Demonstrations like this need to be seen for what they are, exercises in futility.
-
AGuest
Dearest Tower Man... may you have peace...
And may I say that "your" rendition (as well as the NWT's and most other Bible translation's) of Proverbs 8:30... is incorrect... and "you" have been misled.
If you would condescend to read the HEBREW word that the Society and others translate to be master "worker", you would find that the TRUE word... is fosterling... or... LEARNER.
Thus, rather than a master worker, my Lord was an EXCELLENT LEARNER... at the feet of my Father. And this truth is given a second witness by the words of my Lord himself as recorded at John 5:20, which says:
"For the Father... has affection for the Son... and shows him... ALL things He (God) Himself does... and... He (God)... will show him (the Son)... works greater than these... in order that you (the disciples)... may marvel."
Truly, what could God have shown the Son that was greater than creation that would make the disciples marvel? And yet, that was the promise, wasn't it? But you have been misled (as I, too, once was) by the fallacious teaching of the WTBTS that God created Christ and then Christ created all things. This is NOT true! What would have been GREATER... would be the NEW creation!
"Look! I am making ALL things... NEW!"
For my Father, whose name is JAH... of Armies... indeed created the Son... "of His LOVE"... and by means of that Son (the "conduit" or "pattern") and by means of that LOVE... so that THROUGH that One (the Son), all things were created... FOR him. Which is why that Son, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, gave HIS life... to save it. He gave his life to save... what was created... FOR him... the "kingdom of the world," that DID (and thus, will) become "the kingdom of our Lord and of His (God's) Christ." Thus, he (my Lord) INHERITS God's kingdom, as His SON... and rules as king... NOT for 1,000 years... but... forever and ever.
And, quite lovingly, my Lord has consented to SHARE such rulership with people from EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue - 144,000 from among the sons of Israel, literally... AND a great crowd which NO man is able to number FROM those nations, tribes and tongues - to rule WITH him... and "render sacred service"... as kings AND priests... for 1,000 years. Thus, it is said, "Be glad... YOU NATIONS... WITH His peoples!"
Revelation 5:9, 10; 7:4, 19, 15 Romans 11:25; 3:29; 9:24; 16:25, 26
Thus, my Lord is the "beginning" of all creation, and means of a taking from HIM... God made all other of creation. Through him... and for him.
Colossians 1:15, 16 Revelation 11:15
I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Edited by - AGuest on 12 October 2002 22:15:50
Edited by - AGuest on 12 October 2002 22:17:25
Edited by - AGuest on 12 October 2002 22:19:10
-
Blueblades
AGUEST, Help me to understand why a good person who is innocent of wrongdoing has to die for the wrongdoer.How is justice paid when the wrongdoer is the one who should pay for his wrongdoing not the innocent one.And if the wrong doer is flawed from the start,how can he be expected to not do wrong.If in sin he was conceived, and his inclination is to do bad all the time,and if his own heart is desperate and treacherous,then isn't it an injustice to put him to death when he was programmed that way by his maker because of his forefather who did the wrong and not him.When a person is given a start with three strikes against him, how is he expected in all fairness to not do wrong and so lose the gift of life through no fault of his own.Wouldn't it be fair to let each one have a perfect start, then if they willingly do wrong let that one pay for his own badness.Then you would not have to have an innocent person die for that one. Blueblades.
-
Cygnus
John should read pgs. 245-261 of Rolf Furili's book and then come back and kick Chris' arrogant butt.
-
AGuest
Greetings to you, dear Blueblades... and may you have peace!
What you wish to know is quite simple, really... and far from the fallacious teachings of the WTBTS. You ask:
why a good person who is innocent of wrongdoing has to die for the wrongdoer.
A good person doesn't HAVE to die. That is only required IF the life of a "good" person is REQUIRED. Under the circumstances, it was.
How is justice paid when the wrongdoer is the one who should pay for his wrongdoing not the innocent one.
Unfortunately, the "wages"... or price... of wrongdoing... is death. Thus, the wrongdoer can only PAY... by giving HIS life.
And if the wrong doer is flawed from the start,how can he be expected to not do wrong.
He is not "expected" not to do wrong. In fact, it is KNOWN that he will do wrong. He was, however, "sold" into sin... and death. However, some arrogantly think that they won't do wrong... that they CAN live by law... and keep them, one and all. Others even go farther and expect OTHERS to do so, even they themselves cannot.
If in sin he was conceived, and his inclination is to do bad all the time,and if his own heart is desperate and treacherous, then isn't it an injustice to put him to death when he was programmed that way by his maker because of his forefather who did the wrong and not him.
Yes, it would be. However, what WE fail to realize is that there were "laws" in effect even before man was created. Remember the "warning" about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad? Was not the tree planted BEFORE man was put in the Garden?
When a person is given a start with three strikes against him, how is he expected in all fairness to not do wrong and so lose the gift of life through no fault of his own.
He is not expected. Truly. Such believe and expectation is a fallacy.
Wouldn't it be fair to let each one have a perfect start, then if they willingly do wrong let that one pay for his own badness.
It WOULD have been. And it started out that way: God created man, a man, earthling man, "Ad-ham", in HIS image. Adham... was perfect. However, ADHAM... SOLD HIS PROGENY... into sin and death. And rather than God letting it STAY that way, He ALLOWED... a "sacrifice"... according the "rules" of JUSTICE... of the UNIVERSE - "for every action, there IS... a reaction."
God did not HAVE to let His Son sacrifice himself. Here is what occurred, dear Blueblades:
Originally, there were two "forces"... or supremacies: Good and Bad. Life... and Death. Light... and Darkness. When God "created"... He created good, life... and light. However, SOME of that creation CHOSE bad... death... darkness... and in so CHOOSING... sold their offspring to it as well. Let me give you an illustration:
You are a master, I am your slave. You are a father, I am your child. And there is another man. Rather than obeying me as your master, or listening to be as your father, you CHOOSE the other man. CHOOSE him... and obey him. Now, you could... as my master and/or as my father, MAKE me remain with you, in your household, doing YOUR will. Or... you can turn me over to what I chose. You turn me over, because it is what I want. Do my CHILDREN, then, still belong to YOU, as their master and their father... or do they go with ME?
In truth, I have taken my children WITH me... sold them, as I have sold myself, yes? But... it is not their fault! And what if they don't WANT to stay with the master/father than I have sold them to, along with myself? Can they just leave their new master/father... just walk away? Not without a PRICE being paid! What price? A life.
The old master/father was good, dear one... and LIFE. The NEW master, however... is DEATH. And Death... exacts a PRICE! But... Death is not satified with MY life... or that of my children. Why? Because those lives... have NO VALUE! They are "imperfect"! If I turned on my initial father, sooner or later, I would turn on HIM, yes?! Because I am not LOYAL... and I am full of sin. No, Death wants a PERFECT life!
And so... that was the price... a PERFECT life... which neither me, my children, nor you or yours... can pay. Where, then, was this PERFECT life to be found? And how would Death, God, you, me, the universe... KNOW it was perfect? It had to be TESTED... and PROVED perfect!
And... it was... so that by means of that ONE perfect life... ALL life that has been LOST... can be REPURCHASED... and given BACK... to God. By means of that One. For although he died... Death... had NO hold on him. And thus, because Death couldn't hold HIM... Death also cannot hold any that BELONG to him... his "children".
Then you would not have to have an innocent person die for that one.
Unfortunately, that is the "price". And many do NOT understand that such price was NOT exacted by God... but by God's ENEMY... the "last" enemy... Death. DEATH exacts such a price. The problem is that just like many did not know, before the visions given to the prophets before and the Revelation given to John, what came AFTER... and most don't know now... what came BEFORE.
But such "knowledge" can only be obtained from One... he who has ALL authority, so that by HIS spirit, we can know ALL things. The Beginning, BEFORE the Beginning... as well as the "end".
I hope I have been able to help you.
I am your servant, and a slave of Christ,
SJ
-
Siddhashunyata
Interpretations of significant metaphors does not lead to peace.
-
gumby
Would it not seem reasonable(WT lingo) that if the Bible were Gods word.....it would be crystal clear who Jesus is and who God is?
Half the time he is in submission and the other half he IS all things.
I got tired of trying to figure it out a while back. Good luck
-
AGuest
if the Bible were Gods word
It is not. John 1:1, 9; Revelation 19:13
Peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
-
Jesus Christ
Actually, I'm not dad's master worker. Some people like to think that I am but its really this guy named Vinnie. He's just a whiz when it comes to stuff like that.
BTW, get back to work Aguest before I sell you off to Satan for being a bad little slave who spends more time on discussion boards instead of working to buy me a DeLorean. Its so fun ruling the world but I still can't get one of those cars!