Is Jesus God's Master Worker?

by Tower Man 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    get back to work Aguest

    It's Sunday, dude. And since every day is a "sabbath", I don't have to go to no district conventions, special assemblies, WT Studies or public talks... no 'mo. And this could be considered a "territory", so... consider me "out in field service".

    before I sell you off to Satan

    First, I don't think he would have me... and second, I don't think you'd get much. I am not worth anything to him at the present...

    for being a bad little slave who spends more time on discussion boards

    Please refer to my comment regarding "territory", above.

    instead of working to buy me a DeLorean

    First, if I ever made enough money to buy anything close to a DeLorean, you can bet I would be driving it (or one of my kids or one of my good friends would be). Second, get your own dang... nevermind.

    Peace, JC!

    A slave of the TRUE Christ, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH (and not "Je-Zeus", which means, however, "Jah... is God"... in Greek (Zeus/Dios... same thing)),

    SJ

  • gumby
    gumby

    JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH

    Try and say this without slobbering all over yourself....I can't friggin do it!

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    YAH... EH... SHU-A (which is said rapidly so that the "eh" is NOT strongly pronounced) and means "Jah Saves" or "Salvation of Jah"...

    MESHA... YAH (which is said with emphasis on the last syllable) and means "anointed/chosen of Jah".

    Or, if your tongue is truly Americanized/Anglicized...

    JOSHUA... (and even better, Yoshua...)

    MASIAH... (or even better, Mesi-Yah)

    Peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • DJ
    DJ
    ? But you have been misled (as I, too, once was) by the fallacious teaching of the WTBTS that God created Christ and then Christ created all things. This is NOT true! What would have been GREATER... would be the NEW creation!

    Hi Aguest,

    Forgive me but I don't agree with your impression of Tower man's opinion here. I do not think that Tower man is Saying that Jesus was created. I think that he is portraying the belief of Chris in the discussion, who is trying to help John who is the JW. Do you see what I mean?

    Here is towerman's web-site: www.towertotruth.net Please go to it. Towerman is not a jw, but a Christian who tries to help JW's. See what you think, ok? In Christ, Dj

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Hello, dearest DJ... and peace to you!

    I agree with you that:

    I do not think that Tower man is Saying that Jesus was created.

    I don't think that was my point, either.

    I think that he is portraying the belief of Chris in the discussion, who is trying to help John who is the JW.

    Yes, John's belief which is that God created Christ, who created all "other" things... and Chris's, which is that Christ himself created ALL things. Yes? And both... are errors.

    Do you see what I mean?

    Yes. And do you "see" what I meant? You... or rather "Chris" (and by connection "Tower Man") are concerned with the misleading insertion of the word "other." However, I was pointing out the error in the misrendering of "by means of". You know: trading one false teaching for another? I'm not sure I can say that I "see" how that "helps"... either "John"... or "Chris"... or you or Tower Man, dear DJ. Can you?

    Again, I bid you peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

    Edited by - AGuest on 13 October 2002 13:29:23

    Edited by - AGuest on 13 October 2002 13:30:31

  • DJ
    DJ

    Aguest,

    Your wisdom is far to profound for me. Sorry, you lost me. I am just a babe though and I'll be fed in due time. Love in Christ, DJ

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    I really liked those Web Pages Tower Man!

    Here are some more Bible Verses that show that the Father, Jesus Christ [Yahshua Messiah], and the Holy Spirit, as ONE GOD, is THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING:

    Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.
    Genesis 1:2: And the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the Earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the Earth.
    Genesis 1:27: So God created man in His own Image, in the Image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

    1st Corinthians 8:6: But to us there is but One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and One Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him.

    John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:2: The Same was in the beginning with God.
    John 1:3: All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:10: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world did not know Him.

    Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether they are thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
    Colossians 1:17: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

    Psalm 104:30: You send forth Your Spirit, they are created: and You renew the face of the Earth.

    Isaiah 37:16: O Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, who dwells between the cherubims, You are the God, even You alone, of all the kingdoms of the Earth: You have made Heaven and Earth.

    Isaiah 40:12: Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, and meted out the sky with the span, and comprehended the dust of the Earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
    Isaiah 40:13: Who has directed the Spirit of Jehovah, or being His counselor has taught Him?

    Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your Husband; Jehovah of Hosts is His Name; and your Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole Earth shall He be called.

    Psalm 96:5: For all the gods of the nations are idols: but Jehovah made the Heavens.

    Jeremiah 10:10: But Jehovah is the True God, He is the Living God, and an Everlasting King: at His wrath the Earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation.
    Jeremiah 10:11: Thus you shall say to them, The gods that have not made the Heavens and the Earth, even they shall perish from the Earth, and from under these Heavens.
    Jeremiah 10:12: He has made the Earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the Heavens by His discretion.

    Revelation 4:11: You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for You have created all things, and for Your pleasure they are and were created.

    Ephesians 3:9: And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the Mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

    Hebrews 1:1: God who at different times and in various manners spoke in times past to the forefathers by the Prophets,
    Hebrews 1:2: Has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed Heir of all things, by whom also He made the Universe;
    Hebrews 1:3: Who being the Brightness of His Glory, and the Express Image of His Person, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High;

    Hebrews 1:8: But to the Son He says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
    Hebrews 1:9: You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; therefore God, even Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.
    Hebrews 1:10: And, You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the Earth; and the Heavens are the works of Your hands.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Here are some more Bible Verses that show that the Father, Jesus Christ [Yahshua Messiah], and the Holy Spirit, as ONE GOD, is THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING:

    Not quite, dear UnDF'd... and peace to you! May I respond? Thank you!

    Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.

    Yes. God, dear one.

    Genesis 1:2: And the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Yes... the Spirit of GOD.

    Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the Earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the Earth.

    Wait. Before you go to verse 26, check out, please verse 4... and compare that with John 1:9 and 8:12... and note that this "light" was NOT the light formed in verses 14-17.

    Okay, now, back to that verse: who is the "us" God was referring to? I know you have been taught that it was my Lord; however, let's look at the next verse you quote:

    Genesis 1:27: So God created man in His own Image, in the Image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

    Notice that in the first part of the verse it says, "HE... created HIM...' I would like to remind you that it ALSO says, "... male... and FEMALE... He created THEM." So, now man... has a "wife". In whose "image," then, would a "wife" have been made? (

    May I direct you to Galatians 4:26 and say to you that the words, "In the beginning" are TRULY rendered, "in the ARK"? And what is the Ark in which God created all things? It is the womb... of His "wife"... the spirit realm... Jerusalem Above. OUT of "her"... all things were created. They were created, however, BY MEANS of my Lord... THROUGH him... and FOR him. He was/is... the "son" of a father's "love"... my Father, the Holy One of Israel's love... for His "free" wife... Jerusalem Above. His love for HER... resulted... first, in an only-begotten son... and, later, due to love of that SON... in many sons.

    1st Corinthians 8:6: But to us there is but One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and One Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him.

    Yes. ONE God... AND... ONE Lord, for note the original Greek:

    "But to US... one GOD... the Father... OUT of whom the ALL things and we... INTO... Him... and one Lord... Jesus Christ... THROUGH whom the all things... and we... THROUGH him.

    John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Ummm... actually, no, the original language (Greek) says the Word was "toward" THE God... and "a God" was the Word. The difference here is "the" God... and "a" God... as seen by the Greek words qeovn and qeo.

    John 1:2: The Same was in the beginning with God.

    Okay, you say with... the original language says "toward." Why "toward,"? Because just like the angels of the ark (or "ark" angels), the "cherub(s) that were covering" were to keep THEIR faced TOWARD the Propitiatory, my Lord, that Propitiatory had HIS face... toward my Father. It is when one turns one face AWAY... that one disconnects, per se. My Lord's face, then, is STILL "toward" my Father.

    John 1:3: All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

    Uh, nope. Original language: "All things THROUGH him... came to be... and APART from him came to be not but one thing."

    John 1:10: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world did not know Him.

    "He was IN the world and the world came to be THROUGH him... and the world hun not knew."

    Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether they are thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
    Colossians 1:17: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

    Again, no: "Because WITH him it was created the all things... the all things were created THROUGH him and INTO him it has been created; and he is before all things and the all things... with HIM... it has stood together..."

    Psalm 104:30: You send forth Your Spirit, they are created: and You renew the face of the Earth.

    Yes, the spirit of my Father, His life blood, creative "juice", regenerative power... "seed"... SPIRIT, was sent forth BY the Father. May I ask you, however... who is speaking here? I will give you a hint: go back to Psalm 101 and read verses 1-6. David, dear one... is not speaking; my Lord... is speaking... and it is HE that says, "To YOU, O JAH, I will make melody." David wrote it DOWN... by inspiration.

    Isaiah 37:16: O Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, who dwells between the cherubims, You are the God, even You alone, of all the kingdoms of the Earth: You have made Heaven and Earth.

    Well... there you go! I didn't have to quote it for YOU! Praise Jah!

    Isaiah 40:12: Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, and meted out the sky with the span, and comprehended the dust of the Earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
    Isaiah 40:13: Who has directed the Spirit of Jehovah, or being His counselor has taught Him? Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your Husband; Jehovah of Hosts is His Name; and your Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole Earth shall He be called.

    Amen... amen... and amen.

    Psalm 96:5: For all the gods of the nations are idols: but Jehovah made the Heavens.

    Again, you are the one who has quoted it. Just put the true name, JAH (Psalm 68:4)... and all will be correct.

    Jeremiah 10:10: But Jehovah is the True God, He is the Living God, and an Everlasting King: at His wrath the Earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation.
    Jeremiah 10:11: Thus you shall say to them, The gods that have not made the Heavens and the Earth, even they shall perish from the Earth, and from under these Heavens.
    Jeremiah 10:12: He has made the Earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the Heavens by His discretion.

    I would read Jeremiah 10:11 with John 1:1 as it was truly written...

    Revelation 4:11: You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for You have created all things, and for Your pleasure they are and were created.

    You have been misled, dear one... for the TRUE rendering is:

    "Worthy you are, the Lord and the God of US (see John 1:1), to RECEIVE the glory and the honor and the power, because FOR you (many folks drop the "for") the all things created and for YOUR pleasure they are and were created."

    My Lord had to RECEIVE his kingdom, dear one... his glory and his honor and his power. And he had to prove himself worthy to do so. Were he the Father, there would be nothing to prove, nor anything to receive.

    Ephesians 3:9: And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the Mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

    Again, notice the word "by"...

    Hebrews 1:1: God who at different times and in various manners spoke in times past to the forefathers by the Prophets,
    Hebrews 1:2: Has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed Heir of all things, by whom also He made the Universe;

    Yes, and even the prophets, then, were told to kiss... the SON... lest GOD be angry... for HE (the Son) is the One whom GOD... APPOINTED... and "by" whom (the Son), He (God) made everything else.

    Hebrews 1:3: Who being the Brightness of His Glory, and the Express Image of His Person, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High;

    Methinks this on is pretty self-explanatory: an image is not the real thing, but a reflection of it. My Lord, then, is a "reflection" of my Father. Much like when someone sees a father and his young son and say, "Oh, you had that one all by yourself. I can't even SEE his momma in his face; all I see is you." And notice... he sat down on the RIGHT HAND of the Majesty. My Father, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... did not sit down at His own right hand, but GAVE that seat to His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.

    Hebrews 1:8: But to the Son He says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
    Hebrews 1:9: You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; therefore God, even Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.

    Again, pretty self-explanatory. My Lord IS a God... just not THE God, as that is my Father. Thus, THE God anointed my Lord, a God... with the "oil of gladness"... or... holy spirit.

    Hebrews 1:10: And, You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the Earth; and the Heavens are the works of Your hands.

    Actually, this is a quote from Psalm 102:26, wherein my LORD... is speaking to and of my FATHER... through David... under inspiration.

    I hope I have been able to help you, dear UnDF'd... and I pray that you have ears to hear what the Spirit, my Lord says at John 5:39, 40. If you want to know what is TRUE... ask... the Truth (John 14:6). He will not withhold it from you (Proverbs 8:4-11).

    Again, I bid you peace.

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • gumby
    gumby

    Shelby,

    If you want to know what is TRUE... ask... the Truth (John 14:6). He will not withhold it from you (Proverbs 8:4-11).

    Do you know how long I have been praying and asking for truth from him? A long time. So whats his problem with me? Will he do it in his OWN due time?

    Frankly Shelby,...there are hundreds on this board searching, praying, asking for truth.....and guess what? There are hundreds of different answers from these ones. Are all these ones.....not good enough for God to answer them as he's done for you?

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Are all these ones.....not good enough for God to answer them as he's done for you?

    It has absolutely NOTHING to do with being good... enough or otherwise, dear Gumby, as I am not good, myself, and if you knew me, you would know that IN me there was nothing good... until God and Christ came to reside IN me.

    It is simply a matter of faith: I hear... as others do, including you. However, I... and others... have enough FAITH to attribute what I hear to whom I really hear it FROM... and not to myself... or to demons, etc., as well as the courage to hear what is being said, even if I don't particularly like it. 'Cause what will be said FIRST... is about ME... to get the rafter out of MY eye, first. That's it; that's all.

    It would be the same for you: if you constantly spoke to your children, yet they either ignored you, gave the credit to themselves... or to someone else, including your enemies... would you speak louder? Or even at all? Perhaps. But that is you.

    My Lord told us how he speaks: his palate, in LOW TONES, utters truth. Therefore, it is not up to him to speak louder... but to US... to ask for our ears to EXCAVATED if they are not... and then listen... and acknowledge who it is that is speaking. (Proverbs 8:4; Psalm 40:6)

    You CAN do this, Gumby. You and every other living creature on the earth... plant and animal, included.

    I bid you peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

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