I haven't seen it. Did I miss something?
What is the "sign" of "Christ's Invisible Presence?"
by Fisherman 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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LorenzoSmithXVII
First of all, "parousia" is poorly translated as "presence." A parousia was like a long procession preceding the actual arrival of a dignitary who arrived at the very end of that procession. So what they were asking Jesus was what would be some of the events or activities that they would see just prior to his second coming? So the "parousia" is what happens just before the arrival, the "erchomai." So if "pre-arrival events" can be understood as "presence" then fine. If not, then "presence" is a poor translation.
What they were really asking was what would be the signs of his "near-arrival." NEAR-ARRIVAL is a better translation of the word "parousia" compared to presence. "Presents" are what you get at Christmastime. Oh, sorry, I got distracted. (oops! -- smile -- it's late, I've been drinking! Let's try that again:) PRESENCE suggests someone has arrived already, doesn't it? You are "present" *after* you actually arrive.
PARA means near to. So this is a reference to what would happen close to the time of his arrival. What would be the events that we'd see just before your arrival or close to your arrival, or alongside your arrival, accompanying your arrival? So they were asking what would be some of the things they would see just prior to his arrival? But also prior to the "end of the system of things?" Clearly, then, the "end of the system of things" was a big event but they understood that that would occur just prior to his arrival.
Therefore the sign of his near-arrival would be those events mentioned, beginning with a world war, which is "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom." A world war would be the first event of that "last generation." Thus the "parousia" or near-arrival events before his actual arrival would last no more than a generation of 80 years. Since a world war occurred in 1914, his arrival must occur prior to 1994, near the very end of that generation. In the meantime, the "conclusion of the current system of things" would also end.
Now the "system of things" is a reference to the current state of things for the Jews. Thus the specific "system of things" in reference here is synonymous with the "appointed times of the nations" that was to end. So when they thought of the "end of the system of things" they were referencing the end of the appointed times of the nations, which was the current system of things for the Jews. The end of the appointed times of the nations, of course, is also synonymous with the "end of the gentile times." Thus from this context, we know that the "end of the gentile times" was to occur during this 80-year generation between 1914-1994 AD.
But also prior to to the end of the gentile times, the "good news" was to be preached world wide. That is, those woh preached the "good news" would have become an international organization.
Also a major event that was to happen was the "great tribulation" which was to occur prior to the appearance of the "sign of the son of man" which would be seen by the elect in the heavens.
Now, there were to be food shortages and "social unrest" in one place after another. What is customarily translated as "earth quake" from the Greek word seismos, can refer to a storm or tempest or social unrest. So "social unrest" is a more accurate reference of seimos here than "earth quakes" in one place after another or in various places. So besides food shortages and pestilence, easily fulfilled by the Great Depression and the Spanish Influenza, there would be social unrest in the world, obviously leading to a second world war during which the great tribulation would occur.
Now in the Bible, there are two covenants. One with Christians/JWs and one with the natural Jews. When a reference is specific to the Jews, they Jews are called the "greater number" and thus the "lesser number" is a reference to JWs. So when the Bible speaks about the "love of the greater number cooling off" it is speaking about the popularity in the world of the Jews, and thus is a reference to the increase in antisemitism leading up to the "great tribulation" which is actually a reference to the Holocaust during WWII. Thus the "great tribulation" is a reference to WWII. Now that "great tribulation" was supposed to last for 7 years from 1940-1947 after which the Jews would experience the "end of the gentile times" in 1947. But because two-thirds of the Jews were already exterminated by Hitler by late 1944, the "days" of the tribulation were said to be "cut short" or else no flesh (of the Jews) would be saved.
The specific fulfillment of the "conclusion of the system of things," that is, the "end of the gentile times, occurs on November 30, 1947. The preaching of the "good news" occurring prior to this has a general as well as a specific fulfillment. That is, by 1947, JWs had become an international organization and thus had preached the "good news" worldwide by November 30, 1947. "But specifically that year, then president NH Knorr went on an actual around-the-globe speaking tour. Thus that worldwide speaking tour was a specific sign that the "end of the system of things" or the end of the gentile times would happen shortly afterward, and it did! The end of the gentile times did occur on November 30, 1947 with the UN Partition Agreement, and by the Spring of 1948, the State of Israel was established. Both these events, however, were to occur before the "sign of the son of man" would appear in the heavens to the chosen elect and thus also the second coming.
(Oh, yes! I'm so glad to have cleared that up for everyone. You're most welcome!)
Oh wait, one more thing! Specific Bible chronology has to be fulfilled in connection with the "great tribulation" and the "end of the gentile times" 7 years later. These events thus occur in the context of 70 weeks, a 490-year period that would see the end of the gentile times, the second coming, and the "great tribulation." Within the context of these 490 years, the great tribulation occurs after 62 weeks and is referred to as the "cut off." The 70 weeks are divided into 1 week (7 years), 62 weeks (434 years) and 7 weeks (49 years). So after 434 years into the 70 weeks, the great tribulation would occur for 7 years, just before the restoration of the Jews to their homeland for 49 years, the final 49 years of the 70 weeks and also the final 49 years of the covenant. Thus the "covenant" for both Jews and JWs would end in 1996. That's because the 70 weeks occurring during out time begins in 1506 and ends in 1996 based on a countdown of 70-week periods from 36 CE.
4 x 490 = 1960; 1960 + 36 CE = 1996.
The end of 62 weeks or 434 years thus would begin in 1940 (434 + 1506 = 1940). The 7-year tribulation would be from 1940-1947. During this time, two-thirds of the Jews were prophesied to be exterminated during a great tribulation, an event that never happened before nor would happen again. (Zech 13:8) That event was the Holocaust during WWII. But as noted, two-thirds of the Jews were already killed by the end of 1944, so the "days were cut short." That is, WWII ended early in the Spring of 1945. Even so, the "end of the gentile times" did not occur until 1947, when the final 49 years of the 70 weeks would occur, a "week" of 7 years for each day that would see the end of the covenant in 1996.
So it is important to understand that it is not merely seeing these individual events, but those events in connection with the chronology. Of course, the "great tribulation" has to be a one-time event, and that was the Holocaust. Now on retrospect, could anyone think that out of all the signs given approaching the second coming, that the Holocaust wouldn't be one of them? Of course not. It is prominently focused on, only not recognized by most as the "great tribulation," which most people confuse with the "great tribulatoin" that happens to the gentiles just before Armageddon. So there are two great tribulations; one that happens to the Jews or to the "holy ones" during the Holocuast, and one that happens to the gentiles. But again, therefore, the "sign" would have to be a combination of the fulfilled chronology superimposed on the context of these specific events.
Of course, per the Bible, the Holocaust (great tribulation) and the "end of the gentile times" which allows for the State of Israel to be reborn, represented by leaves growing tender on a "fig tree" all happen prior to the second coming and the appearance of the "sign of the son of man" that is seen in the heavens. So the second coming and the appearance of that "sign of the son of man" don't occur until after 1948. Thus the concept of Christ's return and invisible presence at the very beginning of this last generation of 1914-1994 is contradictory to what the Bible teaches. Christ does not actually "arrive" during this generation until after the Holocaust and the State of Israel is set up. The Bible clearly says at 24:29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... the sign of the son of man would appear." Further it says that when you see the fig tree (State of Israel) begin to grow tender, then he is "near at the doors," meaning he doesn't arrive prior to the new State of Israel being established.
1947 begins the 70th jubilee of a covenant for the Jews that began when they were in Egypt, beginning 3430 years earlier in 1435 BCE. Based on that, we can date the Exodus specifically 49 years later to 1386 BCE.
thus both CHRONOLOGY and specific EVENTS combine to confirm the "last generation" that would see the second coming prior to 1994, but not prior to 1948.
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LorenzoSmithXVII
Note that even though JWs specifically were a target of the Nazis along with the Jews to fulfill the "disgusting thing in a holy place" (i.e. both Jews and JWs are considered the "holy ones"), their leadership eventually become apostate, not that the covenant with JWs and Jews didn't end in 1996.
In the Bible, the JW organization is considered the "temple in its right condition" sect. JWs consider themselves the "only true religion," but if they eventually become the "evil slave" organization, which they do, then there are many other faithful organizations out there. Christ sent out "ten" slaves to do work, not just one. He clearly says he has "other sheep not of this fold," another indication that Christ is gathering sheep in more than one place, not just the JW organization.
But JWs were charged with preaching the "good news." So when you think of the JW organization, don't think of them as the "only true religion" or spiritual Israel. Think of them as the temple or the tribe of Levi within Christendom. That is, just as the tribe of Levi had a special commission to manage the temple aspect of the Jewish culture, likewise in the Christian system, a select Christian sect would serve as the "temple in its right condition. That "temple" sect turns out to be JWs. But as the Bible tells us at 2 Thessalonians 2, the leadership becomes corrupt in the end and makes itself a god in God's own house. God's house is his temple and that is made up of the public anointed ones in the organization, who are glorious ones and thus like "gods" themselves. But the GB has made itself superior to the other anointed ones by claiming they are the new mediator between God and them, calling themselves "God's channel of communication." Thus they have become apostate and Jehovah has cast them into spiritual darkness now. Even so, the "man of lawlessness" is associated with God's house, and thus the temple sect. Identify the temple sect, which would be those who preach the "good news" worldwide, and you can identify the "man of lawlessness," which is a reference to the GB of JW who has now become apostate.
So when Christ comes as described in the Bible, he comes to separate the sheep from the goats in this particular religion and he takes the good sheep out, the faithful anointed, and brings them to "other sheep not of this fold" and abandons the goats and the organization, which becomes part of "Babylon the Great." In fact, since Babylon the Great rides the scarlet-colored wild beast, which represents the UN, when the WTS joined the UN in early 1992, they came under the influence and cooperation of Babylon the Great.
Thus the WTS is like the "broad road" that everybody was on in the beginning. That was fine in the beginning when the destination was general and far off. But now it is leading off into destruction and individuals must leave and find the narrow and cramped path. The "group policy" for salvation that the Witnesses are teaching, is thus a dangerous falsehood.
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jhine
Fisherman , to go back ( a long way now ) to your comment about higher education the WT does not want people to have a good education because that helps them to develop critical thinking skills . The WT needs to avoid this at all costs .
Jan
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Iown Mylife
An indisputable FACT about the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is that they have protected pedofiles.
Nothing else about that organization is important.
Marina
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Finkelstein
Fisherman says .....
Your comments do not show it. For example, in another thread you posted that an elder can be demoted to MS. That is false. If you were ever a JW you would know this.
Idiot if you read that thread carefully you would see that some elders were removed from their positions to a lesser involving and responsible positions like a MS.
What has transpired over the years as far as the internal operations of the WTS may have changed but that is irreverent to the topic on this thread isn't ???
...... and yes I was a JWS for over 20 years pioneered , talks etc.
My father has been a JWS for over 65 years and my mother is anointed.
Back onto topic now .....
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Finkelstein
To reiterate what I said previously, is that the WTS with its containing doctrines were apostate theological expressions inherently derived from its literature proliferation agenda as a publishing house.
Most people with an once of intelligence and personal integrity can see that.
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Ucantnome
I spoke to an elder a short while ago regarding the preaching, been an elder for many years, and he felt that if 1914 was changed it wouldn't matter. I disagreed. This was in regard to 20 years difference. -
Finkelstein
If the WTS were to drop 1914 and say they have new light and that was old light, many JWs would accept that for the WTS. has strategic control over people's critical thinking capabilities.
What gets presented or said from god's channel must be true, honest and valuable.
Some would reflectively toss in the towel, but look what the overlapping generation resulted ? , not much to deter people's devotion or commitment.
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Ucantnome
What gets presented or said from god's channel must be true, honest and valuable.
maybe it's sort of like Schrodinger's cat