Armageddon-Real!!

by proplog2 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    What is Armageddon? It is easy to ridicule the idea of some final
    showdown between the forces of good and evil. But it is worth
    examining Armageddon in the context of the Bible. The
    entertainment industry has made quite a bit of money off of the
    idea of Armageddon as some great natural disaster that destroys
    life on Earth.

    The Bible portrays Armageddon as a grand intervention in human
    affairs that preserves human society by changing its direction.
    The Watchtower along with other religions, including primitive
    Christianity have projected onto this event their own need for
    vengeance against those who have persecuted them. When looked at
    carefully Armageddon is a painful though necessary crisis in the
    evolution of human society.

    Life has evolved through selfishness. But there are two kinds of
    selfishness. Short term selfishness and long term selfishness.
    Short term selfishness is what we like to call "sin". Sin is not so
    much "original" as it is intrinsic. The lower animals don't sin
    because they can't anticipate alternative futures. Primates seem
    to do this to some extent. Humans do this all the time. What is
    amazing is the way the Bible deals with this problem. How is man
    going to survive his own selfishness? The Bible gives us a history
    of the futile struggles of a single Nation to survive. Israel does
    all the things Nations typically do to stay alive. It asks for a
    King. It demands central worship at its temple. It kills the
    pagans that surround them. It forces its God and worship on other
    nations.

    Christ comes at a point in history where the old world of loosely
    connected regional nations was in the process of being integrated
    into super empires that were able to bestow advantages in the form
    of citizenship to individuals all over the world. The Romans built
    50,000 miles of roads to connect its colonies. With the break down
    of families, clans, and tribes the Romans filled the void by
    granting citizenship, and along with that bread and legal
    protection. Conquered nations started to lose their identity along
    with their religions. The Jews like other nations that refused to
    integrate with the world were crushed along with their temple.
    Religion too had to have an international appeal if it wanted to
    continue to exist. Jesus promoted a unity based on brotherhood of
    man and surrender of personal interests for the benefit of the
    many. Jesus spoke about a citizenship in a heavenly realm in
    contrast to citizenship in human governments.

    What is the significance of this? The Bible, although clearly a
    human production, is a record of this social evolution. The theme
    is clearly presented that humans are destined to fail if they
    continue on their course. The formation of ever greater empires
    has not unified humans. It has not changed the local nations from
    fighting each other. As super-national groups weaken the local
    battles resume. Adding to human terror is the competition between
    various super-national empires and the development of weapons of
    mass destruction. Christianity, rather than promoting the ideal of
    a higher citizenship and world-wide brother hood has proven false
    to its founder and joined in the various struggles for domination.
    Jehovah's Witnesses, although not perfect, have achieved something
    that no other religion has achieved. They have refused to
    participate in this worlds wars and politics. Instead they have
    chosen to develop an alternative citizenship and remain neutral and
    prepared for intervention from the sky.

    Sure there is a lot of wackiness among JW's. For a culture to form
    it needs boundaries. The objective is to be IN the world though
    not PART of the world. Various Christian groups have isolated
    themselves from the world by placing themselves OUT of the world on
    various communes ie Mennonites etc.. JW's have not done this.
    They are IN the world yet because of various - and admittedly
    strange- rules they have kept up a boundary that has allowed their
    culture to evolve a people who have exemplary love for each other.
    Even the JW blood policy - which I find wrong - has served to
    cement their bond to one another. The blood policy as a condition
    of membership has forced each individual to come to terms with the
    idea that love sometimes means the sacrifice of ones own life. If
    life were not actually lost occasionally by adherence to this
    policy it would be a meaningless exercise. Instead, you have an
    organization of 6,000,000 people who are willing to die for their
    beliefs.

    The Bible says that the world will eventually get to the point
    described at Luke 21:25 "on the earth anguish of nations, not
    knowing the wa out because of the roaring of the sea and its
    agitation, while men become faint out of fear and expectation of
    the things coming upon the inhabited earth." This is the prelude
    to Armageddon. The book of Daniel, whenever it was written,
    foretells a time when the struggle for world domination will be
    ended by a Kingdom set up by God. Dan 2:44 "It will crush and put
    an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times
    indefinite." Very little of all the things modern science and
    technology promises will succeed until human effort can be freed
    from the issue of world domination. Power plants that bring
    electricity to millions of homes are wiped out in seconds during
    war. Brilliant researchers are side-lined from their work by war
    or economic failure. The issue of world dominance is not a trivial
    matter. If it isn't settled mankind is doomed.

    The issue of who will finally rule the whole earth is the central
    issue of the thousands of words of the Bible written over thousands
    of years. In Daniel the final struggle comes down to the struggle
    between the King of the North and the King of the South. Most of
    the 20th century - after World War II -has been a conflict between
    two major powers the Soviet Union and the USA. All the countries
    of the earth were grouped in one or the other camp. Even so-called
    neutral nations were not really neutral but were countries that
    would play these countries against one another for their own
    advantage. At the end the King of the South pushes the King of the
    North. It is clear that the USA has a policy of world dominance
    both economically and militarily. Consider this quote:

    "Geopolitics after World War II was at its core about limiting the
    reach of the Soviet Union. That goal became so fundamental to
    American diplomacy that policy operated almost reflexively and
    provided a dependable calculus of American national interest.
    Peripheral conflicts were deemed significant mainly on the basis of
    whether they helped or harmed the Soviet Union. Our ostensible
    commitment to liberal capitalist democracy could be subordinated to
    accommodate fairly nasty right-wing regimes (Chile, El Salvador, S.
    Africa) and even wayward communist ones (Yugoslavia, China,
    Cambodia) so long as they blocked Soviet expansionism." The End of
    Laissez-Faire, Robert Kuttner, Alfred A. Knopf 1991

    When the Soviet Union pulled out of Eastern Europe, allowing the
    unifying of Germany it was done with an understanding between
    Gorbachev and Bush that Nato would NOT expand into those areas.
    Six years after the cold war ended the USA led the effort to get
    Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic into NATO. Is this pushing or
    not? The United States ignored the world peace organization of the
    United Nations and led NATO into a military aggression against
    Serbia to settle what was really an internal matter to the
    Serbians. This infuriated Russia. Soon NATO is going to include
    the Baltic states. Russia is bound to react. You can't ignore the
    implications of the book of Daniel.

    Revelation portrays the final battle for world domination as a
    conflict between The Wild Beast and a Wealthy entity called Babylon
    The Great. The Harlot rides the Wild Beast. The Wild beast
    destroys the Harlot and dominates the World. By the way - is it
    just coincidental that the Wild Beast experiences a death and re-
    birth as a military force in the world?

    Consider this:

    "On December 25, 1991, Gorbachev announced his resignation as
    president in a solemn television address. The rump Soviet
    parliament passed its final resolution, acknowledging the
    dissolution of the Soviet Union, on December 26. On December 31 all
    residual functions of the first Communist state ceased: The USSR no
    longer existed."

    "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98
    Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights
    reserved.

    The revival of the beast is seen as an entity that starts off
    peaceful like a lamb but then goes back to its old ways. Rev 13:11-
    15.

    Armageddon is NOT the final battle between human powers. It is an
    intervention in human affairs that finally stops the struggle. It
    is an intervention that is carried out for the salvation of the
    human race. It is not to be feared but rather welcomed. The
    Watchtower portrays it as the FINAL judgement of billions of
    people. This is wrong. Final judgment is pictured by the "lake of
    fire". The only thing thrown into the lake of fire were the Wild
    Beast and the False Prophet. These are political entities - NOT
    humans. Of course there will be great loss of life but not
    permanent loss. Verse 21 of Rev 19 says "But the rest were killed
    off with the LONG SWORD of the one seated on the horse ... And all
    the birds were filled from the fleshy parts of them" This grouping
    is described just prior to this in Rev 19:17,18 as kings, military
    commanders, strong men, freemen, slaves, small ones and great.
    These humans didn't get thrown into the lake of fire. They went to
    Hades. Hades is described in Rev. 6:8 as being given authority to
    kill with a LONG SWORD.

    It is not surprising to read about those who come out of Hades
    during the resurrection: Rev 20:12 "And I saw the dead, the GREAT
    AND THE SMALL...judged out of those things written in the scrolls
    according to THEIR deeds...they were judged INDIVIDUALLY according
    to their deeds." The final objective is to give everyone an
    opportunity to do right. This includes those who get killed in the
    battle of Armageddon. Only after this judgement period are any
    humans cast into the Lake of Fire and die a second time forever.

    It appears that only a third of the earth will be the stage for
    this great battle. Rev 8:7 "a third of the earth was burned up".
    This is emphasized throughout Revelation chapter 8. It is probably
    the portion of the earth where Jehovah's Witnesses have completed
    their warning work. The preaching work is finished in the part of
    the world that has had the most complete witness. This richest
    third of the world is the realm of Christendom and battleground for
    this worlds most devastating wars.

    There is a hint at the limited destruction that takes place at
    Armageddon in the book of Daniel. Daniel 7:11b,12 "I kept on
    beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and
    it was given to the burning fire (lake of fire?). BUT, as for the
    rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was
    a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season."

    It appears that some governments will be allowed to keep order for
    a period of time after Armageddon as theocratic rulership is
    gradually put in place. This process is further described in Dan
    7:13,14 "there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son
    of man happened to be coming...And to him there were given
    rulership...that the peoples, national groups and languages should
    all serve him." You may question whether these peoples, national
    groups and languages are organized into governments but this is
    cleared up in verse 27 of chapter 7 "And the kingdom and the
    RULERSHIP and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens
    were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.
    Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom and ALL THE
    RULERSHIPS will serve and obey even them." There will have to be
    RULERSHIPS around if they are going to obey the holy ones.

    Let me summarize these points.

    Armageddon is not just a myth. No one knows what the future holds.
    Armageddon is ONE possibility that must be considered.
    If humans cannot end their struggle for military dominance mankind
    is doomed. There is nothing in the history of the world that would
    suggest any other destiny. Peace efforts have been feeble at best.
    The world is in a more dangerous situation than ever before.
    The Armageddon of the Bible does not result in the second death for
    those who die as a result.
    Armageddon victims will be resurrected and given a chance. NOT a
    second chance.. but a chance.
    Only after the resurrection can people experience the SECOND death
    which is permanent.
    Armageddon will be REAL BIG. BUT it will not mean the destruction
    of everyone except the "holy ones". Those who remain separate
    through the end times will be amply rewarded. But others will not
    automatically be damned.
    The decreases in the increase of JW's indicates the preaching work
    is over. Other great nations, such as China, India, Moslem world,
    will remain and learn from the whole western experience.

  • Francois
    Francois

    What a vivid imagination! We need you in Hollywood dreaming up children's Saturday morning programs. You're wasting your talents here.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Francois:

    Good you got to read it. I posted it primarily for you. Hope you were at least entertained.

    Edited by - proplog2 on 19 October 2002 12:41:49

  • Dizzy Cat
    Dizzy Cat

    Wouldn't it be great if the book of Revelation was easy to read. No tripped out visuals and curious visions, just straight forward, plain Greek

    Its enough to make your head explode. I guess the alien who wrote it is having a laugh at all the bizarre, cock-eyed interpretations.

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77

    Propolog2, 'follow the money'.

    Guest 77

  • Francois
    Francois

    If you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Proplog,

    Your first mistake is that you think the Bible is somehow unique and special.

    It isn't. Ever since the days of Zoroaster, whose Gathas are the first written records of religion known in history, man has imagined that there is a cosmic struggle between powers of light and powers of darkness.

    It is very safe to tell us that Armageddon is real but is in the indeterminable future. At least 1975 won't bite your ass.

    Since your proofs consisted of nothing more than speculation and imagination, I suggest another opinion may be more correct and will be verified by history. Armageddon is FAKE, and will never occur.

    Too bad you put so much of your time and effort into suporting a false idea.

  • Realist
    Realist

    prolog,

    i let you in on a secret (don't tell anyone else)...the bible is NOT god's word.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    I'd like to take up a challenge to your statement prolog, and say that I indeed, not Francios, am the lesser interested, as I care less to read this thread twice.

    The world is in a more dangerous situation than ever before.

    For who?

    paduan

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Nathan:

    I don't believe in struggles between light and darkness. I believe that there is a catch-22 with evolution. Protecting one's cytoplasm with a selective membrane got us into the "self" business. But this strategy breaks down when it comes to national boundaries. I have to believe that if there are organisms that have evolved to higher forms throughout the universe then this drama has played out before. There is a chance some civilization somewhere by some crazy quirk discovered a way to transcend war and boundary. We certainly haven't figured a way out. And I think at the present that man is doomed. Unless somewhere out "there" we have benefactors who can help us at the critical point where we will destroy ourselves.

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